[00:00:00] Mia Fileman
Are you tired of empty promises and stolen ideas? Me too. Got Marketing is a podcast for marketers and small brands who want real talk and clever strategies without the BS. Running an online business is hard, but everything gets easier when your marketing starts performing. I'm Mia Feilman, your straight shooting, campaign loving friend here to talk marketing, running a business, pop culture, and everything in between. Let's dive in.
[00:00:41] Mia
Hello friend. Welcome to this Gogglebox style episode where we discuss Apple Cider Vinegar, the Netflix series that tells the story of Belle Gibson, the wellness guru and influencer who faked her cancer diagnosis to promote her brand. Joining me for this chat are two of my favorite people, marketing legends and true crime aficionados, Nell Casey and Janine Staunton.
[00:01:14] Nell
Hi, great to be here.
[00:01:17] Janine
So excited to be here Mia.
[00:01:20] Mia
Welcome to the show. I was so excited in anticipation for this TV show because I've spent the last four years talking about gurus, but now having watched the series, I just feel really sick. Before we dive in, I would love to get a little bit of an intro from both of you because you are some of the cleverest marketers that I have had the pleasure of working with.
[00:01:38] Nell
I'll jump in first. So my name is Nell. I have a business called Fake Creative. I'm a marketing strategist. For purpose led product based brands, and I just love working with brands and founders to help them get more visibility online through their thought leadership. And when I say I ran to like the WhatsApp message group to talk to you guys about this.
series. I was so excited because yeah, for me, this is just everything that I'm interested in. It's scams, it's marketing, and it's how we present ourselves online and the reality or unreality.
[00:02:15] Janine
Yeah, I'm very similar to Nell. I'm Janayne Staunton. My business is Lemon Crush Design. I'm a website strategist and website designer, and I work with professional service businesses.
to help them turn their website into their most powerful marketing tool. My background is also in marketing. So this appealed to me from that perspective, but I'm also a complete true crime nut and I love real stories. And so this is. You know, my favorite type of show is when they take a real story and turn it into a series that is beautifully produced.
And true stories are often better than fiction because it just, you can't make this stuff up, what happened in this show.
[00:03:00] Mia
You cannot make it up. All right, let's get into it. Apple cider vinegar tells the Belle Gibson story, and we're unpacking that today. What worked, what didn't, and how the hell this even happened in the first place. There's going to be spoilers, so if you haven't watched it yet, maybe pause here, go and binge it, and come back later. All right, before we dive into what we thought, I'd love to know what you expected from the series.
[00:03:23] Janine
I knew a little about Belle's story. I had seen the 60 Minutes interview, which I think everybody had seen at some point, recognized that pink turtleneck.
Uh, and I was also familiar with the story because I was working in the charity industry at the time. And so it was discussed in that context. Of people promising things to charities where that money didn't get delivered. But it was, it was the other story that I didn't know anything about. So the character of Miller, I didn't know anything about that story.
And the real woman that that relates to Jess Ainscough, I wasn't familiar with that story, which was a, which was a big surprise.
[00:04:00] Nell
Yeah, I think the same back then I do definitely remember the interview and that iconic pink jumper, but I'm just trying to think of like where I was in the Instagram land back then.
And I just must not have been on that side of Instagram because the wellness and that wellness movement was so big. Unfamiliar to me, although weirdly, I do remember someone posting at the time about that death of Jess Ainscott. So I must have been following someone who was within that circle, but when it came to this series, I have been familiar with the story from that true crime perspective, having listened to podcasts previously that break it down. I did find it a little bit more fluffy than I kind of expected. I think I'd expected it to be a little bit more of a deep dive into the how, the what, the who. The presentation of it was very much for commercial television. But, you know, for me, I'm just, I just wanted to get more of the story. I wanted to know more about what had gone on and a bit of the background that led up to it. That interview and the kind of the culmination of events.
[00:04:58] Mia
Yeah, I wasn't following Belle Gibson. The first I ever heard from her was when she was convicted, actually. And I had big expectations going into this TV series, especially from the trailer, that it was going to be about how she got caught. That's what really interested me.
And to find out that it was a deeply sad cancer story threw me for a six and I was just not ready for it, especially the way that they made it, which was very gossip girl styling for really heavy subject matter. And that to me was tonally quite off. So I'd like to know on a tomato meter what you give it out of a hundred.
[00:05:37] Janine
I give it a 99 and I know that's really high, but I just, I actually loved the stylised approach to it. I thought it was a perfect parallel to the sort of shiny surface level social media Instagram that was portrayed glossing over anything of substance. I loved the breaking of the fourth wall in the beginning of each episode.
I loved the music, and I actually, you're right man, the cancer side of things was a lot harder hitting than I thought. I thought we were just getting Belle's story, but the way that they brought the three main stories together and gave real context and consequences to what happened, I just thought it was brilliant.
I think it left you with a real feeling of the reality of someone doing something like this, which was more powerful, I think, than if they just told her story of her lying.
[00:06:32] Mia
Yeah. That's such a good point that like, it actually showed repercussions as well as, you know, inventing Anna was great, but it didn't show anyone getting hurt as a result of what she did. And it was obviously very different context, but would you agree that Belle Gibson has blood on her hands?
[00:06:49] Nell
Yeah, definitely. If you can, like, to not consider the health repercussions of what she was saying, and I don't think that she ever did, but like, honestly, it's the financial implications, which is what they were able to charge her with, was, you know, obviously deep.
It's really upsetting for a lot of people, but monetarily, not a huge amount of money, but it was the health implications and how wide that spread that was the real serious issue that she's never had to answer for. And so what score do you give it now? I give it a 79. It's a distinction for me. Uh, I think it was really well done.
I I do prefer my true crime to be a little bit grittier than this was presented as, but it was highly entertaining and a great way, I guess, to have that story. told and, you know, in a unique, different, interesting way. But yeah, for me, I think that there was some aspects of it that were glossed over or the glossiness of the production didn't really hit as strong as it could have.
[00:07:49] Mia
Yeah. I'm with you. I give it 75 percent fresh. I couldn't stop watching it, but I found the execution tonally off. Why did it feel like Gossip Girl when the subject matter was this dark? I, I think it could have been stronger.
[00:08:04] Janine
Hmm. Yeah. Uh, I, yeah, I disagree. I think that it was purposefully done that way. I think if you think back, this is sort of set around the time that Instagram first came out.
And that's how things looked. I feel like it was done to sort of show the time period that we're talking about and how off that is, how, you know, we're talking about something that could not be more serious. And this is how it's portrayed. It's like, you know, the way that cancer is portrayed and how the people following these women want cancer to look a certain way they want cancer to look like young, healthy women and are not actually showing. What is the reality of living with cancer, which was Lucy's story. People don't want people to be sick. And then when Miller does get sick and goes on her Instagram and shows, you know, I actually am sick, she gets trolled for it, and people stop following her. And I think. The way that they stylized the show is actually showing something to us that that glossy style isn't actually what's going on underneath. And to me, it made me really think about what we're exposed to and how we don't look at things deeply enough.
[00:09:21] Nell
Great insights.
[00:09:23] Mia
That's a really interesting perspective. I didn't think of it like that. So yeah, that's awesome. All right, let's start with Belle. How did you read her? Was she a master manipulator from the start, or did she just start believing her own lies, and this snowballed?
[00:09:37] Nell
Uh, I'm really torn on this, because I, I do feel in some ways that she found herself in too deep and did not necessarily think, well, I'm just going to backtrack. You know, it had gotten so far that backtracking became really difficult. But at the same time, the lies were so complex and they drove further forward and unnecessarily forward in, in a lot of ways, you know, it's one thing to say you have one cancer to then add on four other cancers that you're suffering with is like, you don't need to keep telling a different, a new different lie to, you know, progress, quote unquote, like what your objectives are. So, I definitely found that maybe in the start, it was a, a little big white lie that got out of control. But the deeper it went, the more I was like, you are just now know exactly what you're doing here.
[00:10:29] Janine
Yeah, I, I mean, I, I agree with you and I think that them showing her childhood and where that lying started from, I mean, she'd been lying her entire life and her mum was lying and it was all around health and it became you lie about your health to get attention, to get love and, you know, Belle had been doing that her entire life and I feel like If that's all you've ever known, how could you know reality from fiction? And you think if you're not someone who lies very often, you feel guilt and you feel something. But I wonder if you've grown up with just lying being such a part of who you are and how you grew up. I wonder if she even has those feelings, you know, the normal human feelings of guilt and knowing that you're doing something wrong.
I wonder if she felt that. I'm not defending her in any way because what she's done is clearly wrong, but God, there's, there's something about her and the way that she clearly believes what she's saying or doesn't know what's fiction and doesn't know what's fact. Even in that 60-minute interview, when she's asked her age, she literally doesn't know how old she is.
This is someone who. Relationship with the truth is completely abnormal.
[00:11:41] Mia
I think she knew she was lying. I just think that what you just said there, Janine, is so interesting. I think that she doesn't have empathy because I actually think she's a sociopath, undiagnosed. And I know absolutely nothing about medical stuff, so I could even have that wrong. But I believe that one of the hallmarks of being a sociopath is that you can't feel empathy. So for her, as you said, growing up, she's surrounded by lying and it's just par for the course. She doesn't really understand the repercussions of that. And with the 60 minutes episode and also throughout the series, it seemed to be like she was just getting annoyed that people were questioning her. She wasn't remorseful in any way. She never apologized. She never accepted that she, she did accept for a moment that she lied and then she took it back. So it was almost like, I think she knew she was lying, but I don't think she cared. I don't think she cared either. I don't think she's capable of caring.
[00:12:33] Janine
I feel like the reason, the core reason she's doing it is because. She doesn't want to be rejected. She wants to be accepted. She wants to be loved in a way she never has had. And there's just, it's so selfish and there's so much underneath it that there's got to be a diagnosis of something. There's some sort of personality disorder because this just isn't how people generally behave, I hope.
[00:13:00] Nell
We've seen, not necessarily like Bell Gibson level of pathological lying around health or health issues. But as all of us, true crime aficionados would know, this is not the first time that someone has lied deeply in order to financially or otherwise gain a benefit. So there's plenty of examples like the Tinder swindler and even inventing Anna, you know, all of those examples of individuals who lied and continue to lie even when the walls were closing in around them because the alternative of telling the truth was not beneficial to them and was not going to progress.
It's not unique to her and I don't, I mean, you know, we can't all be armchair psychologists. I don't necessarily think that in all cases it's about being a sociopath or otherwise, but there's plenty of examples of people who will just continue to lie even in the face of the truth because it's. It's more beneficial for them to do that right now.
[00:13:58] Janine
And that, that reminds me actually of even two things I've seen this week or listened to, I listened to another podcast called Caitlin's baby about a woman lying about being a doula. And then, you know, the other one, that awful movie with Amy Schumer's got out at the moment about lying about being pregnant.
And then like what you mentioned about the Tinder swindler, I feel like there's almost men are lying for money, but women, it feels like there's deeper psychological reasons. Why we're lying or why they're lying. There's always some sort of unmet need or fear or something like that. And I love being an armchair psychologist.
I could, I could try and diagnose all of them. Uh, yeah, you're right. That she's not, you're right. She's not the only one lying.
[00:14:38] Mia
No, I think it shocks people the degree to which entrepreneurs lie. The Harvard business review did an absolutely amazing article on this, but it is, it's quite prolific everywhere from this Bell Gibson, Elizabeth Holmes, Billy McFarland fire festival, which is like really extreme all the way to just exaggeration or.
Hyperbole. There is so much lying. And that comes from wanting to seek influence and status, which is to your point, Janine, that women are looking for that sort of unmet need that we want that power and that status, or it comes from desperation. You know, we've invested heavily into our businesses. We've put savings, we've quit our high paying jobs and we've gone all in on these businesses and they're not going as well as we'd hoped. And so if we start lying and we portray ourselves as more successful than we are, then people buy into that lie, right? Like, of course you want to work with the person that's making millions of dollars and is in Bali every second weekend. Of course you want to invest with them because you want to be them. And so as a result, the problem is, is that the bell Gibsons breed bell Gibsons. Gurus breed gurus, which is why I want to cut this off at the knees.
[00:15:50] Janine
Oh, yes. Cause it's like we're all going for the shiny object and not looking at what's underneath, which is definitely what happened here.
You think how many people published things to do with Belle Gibson, the magazines, her book getting published, being on TV interviews and everything. No one fact-checked anything. So there's a system in play as well that lets these shiny stories. feature as well without any checks and social media is the same.
[00:16:19] Nell
Yeah. And it comes back to you know, that idea again, the gurus. How easy it is it to go on to social media and say that you're a seven figure business owner or coach and who's fact checking that, how do you fact check that? Like I'm not asking for people's financials, but should we be, should we be putting our trust in what people are saying on social media with no.
evidence and no backup and no critical thinking around, well, what do they benefit from when they say that versus what do I want to know? What do I want to hear from them to make myself feel good? And Bill Gibson is the big example, but it's the little gurus that we really have to be, we have to watch out for and we have to consider in this context.
[00:17:01] Mia
Totally. Let's touch on at the end of this episode, how to fact check, because that is such a good point that we need to do more due diligence. Gurus are doctoring testimonials. They're just writing them and they're just putting them there. Because how would I know if Janine Staunton did that program or not? I just take that at her word, right? So how do we fact check? What do we do to have confidence investing in people that they're not all just smoke and mirrors? But let's go back to the show for a second. When I was watching it, I found myself constantly asking, how did people fall for this? You know, like, but at the same time, I get it. When you have cancer or when you're unwell, someone's saying to you, you don't have to cut your arm off. That sounds like all my dreams come true. And like you were saying, Janine, this was very representative of the time with the. Instagram aesthetic, her charisma. She essentially told people what they wanted to hear. Do you two buy the way they portrayed her rise to fame and her believable credibility?
[00:17:59] Janine
Yeah, definitely believe it. I think now people would be more skeptical, but given the time. It was, I think it was all, I mean, it was the start really of also the wellness and the clean eating and the let me take photos of my food and health being almost a morality issue, uh, was all starting around that point.
And then these, these. Miller's story of this beautiful girl with cancer, and I'm taking control of my own health and that evangelical almost, you know, that scene where she's found out she's got cancer and she's had that initial treatment. And then she goes to that sort of health spa place and she talks about the cancer being her fault because of how she was living, blaming the other women that were there that had cancer saying it was that they've done. And I just think with that kind of culture that we've got where people are thinking, I need to be perfect. I need to be a certain way. I need to be this, that when the reality of life hits. And you get cancer and it interrupts that the desperation for it not to be there and to go back to normal and deny reality, uh, I think is really believable.
So I don't necessarily think it's that person's fault. I actually think it's the culture that we were in at that time. And I still think it would happen today. I just think it's a little more subtle today, but I do still think it, it could happen.
[00:19:32] Nell
I think you've touched on a point and I personally have not ever experienced a really serious health issue but I know plenty of people that have including cancer and I think it's a real human need to feel somewhat in control of ourselves and our body. And I think that Belle Gibson and even, you know, Miller and the Rise of the Wellness, like, movement touches on that, you know, as much as I strongly believe in the medical establishment and the medical profession, we don't see exposure, that's not showing up on social media for us every single day, right?
Like no one's posting about their medical treatments in the way that they post about their health and their wellness treatments or their health and their wellness initiatives or ambitions. And that is a problem because then we see that and go, well, how am I going to be more in control? I'm going to follow what I'm seeing other people doing and talking about and saying that this is how they have control. This is what they're doing to have control. And you know, that is. Like kind of the problem in a lot of ways.
[00:20:34] Janine
Yeah, absolutely, you're so right, Nell, because I think if people were showing the authentic journey, that people would block it, or scroll past it, or, it's just not what, unfortunately, and that's what the problem is, is people don't want to see that, and that's so sad, because people that are actually going through the journey, like Lucy's character represented, is it's not glamorous, and there's nothing about it that's Pleasant. And when people are sort of posting about, well, cancer should be inspirational, and look at me, and drinking six juices a day, and five enemas, and I feel amazing, and look amazing. Oh, it's so, it's so messed up. It is so messed up.
[00:21:10] Mia
I'm so skeptical. I think I was just born skeptical. And whenever I see something that is not nuanced, My flags just immediately go up, like Ballerina Farm, Nara Smith, like all of it to me.
I just like, this is bullshit. So much bullshit. And yeah, you're so right, Janine. If Lucy had an Instagram account where she was talking about her cancer journey, it would just be the most depressing Instagram account on the planet and no one would follow it. It's easy for me to say that I don't think I would have fallen for this.
But I also wasn't following her at the time and may well have been duped by this like many people were.
[00:21:50] Nell
Yes, I think that's the thing. And that many people were that we cannot blame the people or pass judgment on people that do. I guess, follow or get enmeshed in this. It is, it is ultimately the fault of those at the head, but what we have a duty to do and what the purpose of this podcast is, and, you know, others is to shine that light on and say, this is how we can be more skeptical.
This is how marketing works. And this is how the gurus are trying to dupe you. Like stay alert people, stay aware, and hopefully we will see less gurus. In the position where they can manipulate more people because we're all a little bit more smarter and savvier and cynical about what we're saying.
[00:22:30] Mia
Bang on.
[00:22:32] Janine
And I wonder if, because we are in marketing, we are a little more skeptical because we know what goes on behind the scenes. It would be interesting for people to even just go through their own feeds at the moment and just see how similar is what you're looking at, like from post to post to post. We, the way the algorithm works essentially is that, so you're only seeing what you interact with.
You're only seeing what you like, and that's all it feeds you. So we actually don't see difference because we've fed the same stuff over and over and over again. And that takes away critical thought and objective thought, because if all you're getting is validating what you already believe, then how can you be objective? So it's almost like, just being more aware of what you've, what you're being fed yourself and actually question that and think, hang on, what am I not seeing? I'm only seeing the shiny stuff or I'm only seeing my opinion posted back at me. Yeah. It's just an awareness of that.
[00:23:35] Mia
100%. about this with my husband because all the content I see about Elon Musk is so negative. All the headlines I read from the media publications that I follow are negative. My husband has like almost a whole different internet. It is all positive, like Elon Musk, philanthropist, the billionaire who actually cares. Elon Musk, who got automotive companies to finally go electric. No one else could do that but him. He's putting all these Satellites in space so we can have high speed internet. Mine is 100 percent negative. He is evil. He is a Nazi. My husband's is 100 percent positive. What is the truth? Is he horrible, or is he actually a nice guy, or is he neither of those things?
[00:24:17] Nell
I think we all know the answer to that one.
[00:24:21] Mia
Do we? Yes.
[00:24:26] Janine
I think Nell and I probably have the same fee
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[00:25:12] Mia
All right, Belle was one of many unlikable characters. There were very few likable characters.
I don't know if you agree. So I'd like to discuss some of the others. Miller, Chanel, who was the whistleblower, Clive, the partner of Belle, Julie Gibbs. Who is quite a well known publisher at Penguin, Bell's mum, Arlo, Millie's boyfriend, Lucy, the reporter from The Age. Thoughts?
[00:25:42] Janine
That's a lot of characters in one show, for a start, like, there was a lot going on in the show.
I loved that there were flawed characters. characters. I think I prefer that you're right. They weren't particularly likable, but I think the situations that they were in, it made sense that they weren't likable. I think the only one I probably was annoyed by was Is it Chanel her name? Thought that was probably, there was probably a bit much of that.
What really messed with my head watching it was the male characters because I felt they were very secondary I felt to the story, which is, which is fine, which is good. But they were either pandering to the women, which again, there's nothing wrong with pandering to women, but in this case, it was like, Oh, pathetic.
You know, when you look at Heck, you know, her publicity PR guide, like what was that? Like, it's not that charismatic. She's not that, and Clive, why were they falling all over themselves? For her, I just didn't believe that and the dad, I actually thought, say Miller's dad, I thought was a very believable character and I actually, he's probably one of my more favorite characters in the show, but yeah, the other men didn't like, didn't like them. I wasn't as forgiving of the men, I never am, but I certainly wasn't in this case either.
[00:27:08] Nell
Yeah. I think you're right that they. They definitely felt more passive, passive within the story and passive within their relationships to the female characters, who were, as you say, more complex, largely unlikable. I mean, even Chanel's redemption arc, where she becomes the whistleblower, but really like did not talk about at all her responsibility for Belle's rise in the first place, which I think was a bit of a Yeah, I just, the women were largely unlikable and unredemptive, and the men were just passive, like passengers in the story.
[00:27:47] Mia
I noticed that every female character was manipulative, gullible, or narcissistic, while the male characters were mostly portrayed as compassionate, and I didn't like that. But passive is probably more accurate than compassionate.
[00:28:00] Nell
Is it again, and we touched on this when we were talking about the different types of, I guess, scams or manipulation that we see online, where women it's about health.
And men, it's about money because this didn't involve a lot of money. Like largely, I know that there were, you know, the amounts themselves were large, but you know, someone who downloaded an app for 2 didn't lose a whole lot of money financially. Was it that, was it because this is a health and wellness stories is about health and wellness.
That's a women's issue and a female protagonist to the story. So the men were just secondary because I can name plenty of true crime. Scam stories where the men are central and that's because money was central to the story.
[00:28:35] Janine
Oh, I think you've nailed it on the head there, Nell, because I don't think men understand this.
So, cause they're almost not living in the same experience that we are in terms of the wellness. Craze and the wellness expectations and the health expectations on women and what we're exposed to. And this whole thing about needing to be perfect and needing to look perfect. And it's our fault if we're sick and that the women are responding, the female characters in that, in this show are responding to that, the culture that we're in, where are the men aren't in that, so they're kind of bumbling along this ride, not.
Really understanding what the core motivations are for the decisions that the women are making in the show. And maybe that's why they come across like that. It's because they genuinely just don't, don't get it.
[00:29:17] Mia
Yeah, I think you're spot on too now. Completely accurate about the health and well being versus money. I never thought of it like that.
[00:29:44] Nell
Can you tell I watch a lot of true crime?
[00:29:48] Mia
Alright, so what was your most jaw dropping moment?
[00:29:52] Nell
You go first, Mia. I want to know.
[00.29:55] Mia
It was, I could not believe that she stole the money from Hunter's family for Hunter's surgery. Like, if there's ever a time where you're like, okay, this has gone too far.
I need to come to Jesus moment. And like a sobering thought, like this kid is going to die. I've raised 60, 000 for him. And she blocked the number. That's where I was like, okay, this is, this has moved into a new territory for me now.
[00:30:22] Janine
Yeah, that was unbelievable. It's sickening, sickening to watch. And then knowing that was true.
Although Hunter isn't, is a fictional character. She did do that to a family in real life. It's just, it's heartbreaking. My jaw dropping moment was. The sequence with Miller's mom and that dinner where, you know, she's so sick and the daughter wanting to take her to Mexico to go through the same treatment that she had, all the while knowing that she was still sick.
And then, oh, and then the airport saying goodbye to her husband and then the agony that she was in on the plane and just. Oh, so angry and so sad and just wanted to throw something at the TV of this. This is just such a waste and such a horrible thing for someone to go through. Oh, I just thought it was tragic.
[00:31:25] Mia
I thought Miller believed her own lies. I thought she, throughout it, she was like, I can get on top of this. This is working. We just got a little bit of a blip. I can get on top of it. It was different to the Bell story. Do you agree?
[00:31:37] Janine
Definitely different from the Bell story. She definitely believed in what she was saying. She was evangelical about what she believed. And I believed the arc of her story as well of, you know, the realization eventually of what she'd done felt real.
[00:31:53] Nell
I think my jaw-dropping moment, both of you touched on ones that, yes, definitely stuck out. But for me, it was the one where she had the seizure at her son's birthday party.
Oh. And I just was like, way to centre yourself in an event that's not for you, and is going to be clearly traumatic for your child and every other child at that event. To just have that thought of like, I'm going to throw myself on the floor for 45 minutes. Uh, I just, I honestly, that made me. So sick because it was, I just felt for that child, her poor son, who never knew whether his mom was sick or not sick and never got the attention that he really deserved as a child.
[00:32:44] Mia
That's yeah, that was a really troubling scene, wasn't it? And then Clive knew that it was fake and he's like, don't do that again in front of your kid. Oh, there's so many moments where I just felt so unwell during this show. Like, what am I watching? This is so bad. Yeah. Yeah. But good. Bad but good. All right, what about the ending? What did we think about how they handled the ending?
[00:33:09] Nell
I immediately went and googled because the ending tells you to go on Google, right? Like that was the ending. The ending was like, this is not the end. If you want to find out more, you know, go on Google. And I have no doubt because the sheer number of search results that come up when you search Bill Gibson that have been published in the last week, that they knew exactly what was going to happen, that everyone was going to try and figure out what had happened to the story, like where that was left.
Who was real and who was unreal within that story? And where the heck is Belle now? That, that for me, it was clever in the sense of leaving so many things unfinished.
[00:34:40] Janine
Yeah, I, I agree. Now I liked that they did that because we will do that or maybe it is just me, but I always Google go down a rabbit hole and I certainly went down one with this. And I also felt like, I wonder if they're covering themselves a little bit as well with how much they could say at the end of what happened, like what happened with baby reindeer and them being sued Netflix over what they had said. And I think it, it was also just insightful on their part to know their audience and know how this works, how this genre works.
[00:35:05] Mia
Yeah, I really liked the ending. I thought the last two episodes were significantly better than the first couple. Like it really picked up steam for me. There were a lot of open loops that weren't closed with the ending though. Like they introduced this Dr. Carl character that she went and saw in a warehouse, but we never really understood who he was and what that was all about.
We don't know what happened to Lucy. Did she get better? I guess we don't need to know. It's pretty obvious Hunter didn't make it. It was going to be experimental surgery. I think that's probably, it was a generosity for them not to tell us how that story ended. But I, I really, I thought they handled the ending well.
[00:35:43] Nell
The Dr. Kyle thing was interesting, wasn't it? You're right. They threw it in there and then they were like, nah, that's it. That's all you're getting. That's, that's it. I think that to me was a hint of the shift in the wellness movement that went from health and healthy eating and juices to fancy tech. And that we all know came very heavily through COVID.
Famous former chef may have been involved in a lawsuit around that. So yeah, that was a hint of where does the wellness movement go next? The health and wellness movement go next in the grand timeline that we are still living of the health and wellness gurus. I think it also highlights, though, the frustration with never getting a full story from Belle.
[00:36:34] Janine
So, I think what they showed of Dr. Carl, or Dr. Phil, I think, was it Dr. Carl, Dr. Phil, Dr.? No, no, I think you're right. I think it was Dr. Phil. Because I remember, that clopped me in my head. What they showed of Dr. Phil was what she had told people had happened and that's all. Like, there's no outcome of that because she never said anything else.
And so it's like that frustration of people giving you these half stories and lies and is it true or is it not? And I think it's clever not to close the loop because there is no loop to close with someone like her.
[00:36:20] Mia
That's such a good point, Janine. I didn't think of it like that, that they want us to feel the same frustration that people are feeling in reality about this story.
Like, where is she now? Did she ever get her comeuppance? And so, yeah, that's a really good point. So in your Google deep dives, did you unearth anything interesting about Belle Gibson now and what she's doing and where we're at?
[00:36:41] Nell
Well, there were recent stories about how she hasn't paid any of the fines and It has some ongoing issues around lying and infiltrating communities, and to me, it's kind of like, it's really frustrating because I really feel for the victims in the true story in her world, that they haven't seen any of that return, like she hasn't paid any of the fines.
But at the same time, it's like, how much energy do we give to focus on her individually rather than turning a light on the system itself that allowed her to flourish? So yeah, I mean, I, I Googled and I didn't find a heap of answers. I don't know if you found any new insights, Janine, when you went on a Google.
[00:38:14] Janine
No, I found the same, the same things. I think I agree with you on not wanting to focus too much on her, but I was actually shocked. That she only split up with Clive a couple of years ago, so they did stay together after all of this happened. And I found that quite surprising that, that he would stay with her.
And the other thing that kind of came to my mind was, is she going to benefit from this? In any way and kind of hoping she doesn't because I can imagine with the interest in it now, is she going to be approached for interviews again? And is she going to get paid? And I just wonder and hope that that sort of stuff doesn't come up now that she sort of gets rewarded because I feel like she didn't get criminally charged. So I wonder if she's actually allowed to speak. About it and then profit again. And that was kind of the thing that came up for me when I was Googling. I was like, Oh no, everyone is really interested in her again. I hope this doesn't end up benefiting her in some way.
[00:38:26] Mia
Maybe I'm just like wishful thinking, but I read that her house was rated twice because she hasn't paid the fine.
And so if someone came forward and offered her 40 grand for an interview. then she wouldn't be able to keep it because she hasn't paid the fine back.
[00:38:48] Nell
You know what I saw though, and this is conspiracy theory, which is also believable, her cookbooks that were pulled from publishing are now going for quite significant amounts on eBay.
And someone rightfully pointed out that who knows if she's got Boxes of those sat in a garage and is potentially going to make money out of people just curiously wanting to see what the cookbook was like and, you know, happy to drop a couple of hundred dollars on the thrill of it. And I was like, Oh yeah, let's, let's not make that a thing.
Like, let's, let's leave that book in the boxes that they
[00:39:19 Mia
Yeah, wow. That's so interesting. Good sleuthing Nell. You got some tea for sure.
You mentioned Clive Janine and it sounded like he was done with her, but he was so in love with her. the little boy and he had been really the only parental figure. And when that horrible scene at the front of the hospital where she's like, you don't have any custody, which is wrong, which is wrong, but you have no rights was basically like, you leave me.
And You're not, you're not going to see this kid again. I'm going to use him as a bartering chip. Like the depths of this woman's evilness is, is just crazy to me that he stayed with her because he knew that this boy deserved a father.
[00:40:06] Janine
Yeah. That makes complete sense that he would do that. Yeah.
[00:40:10] Nell
Yeah. They definitely hinted at that in the storyline, that the reason that he, and you know, again, because we're, we're sort of on hearsay and, and some of the writers, you know, relying on the writers and the storyline here, but. You know, I could see someone in that situation feeling like, if I leave, this kid, you know, what hope do they have? Belle, you know, didn't have that relationship when she was growing up. She didn't have a parent figure who was watching out for her. She had a parent figure who was very concerned with their own health.
And, That's believable to me that he waited until a point where her child was maybe a little bit further along in his development and it wouldn't affect him as much to leave. That to me was very sad, that, that sort of relationship and, and God, I just feel so bad for her son.
[00:40:53] Mia
Yeah, I, I, I'm with you on that take that he put, he sacrificed himself really for the, for the child.
Alright, final thoughts. Final thoughts.
[00:41:05] Janine
My final thoughts are that this was personally a very entertaining and great. You know, experience of the show and going down the rabbit hole and gave my ADHD a huge hit of dopamine, but it also made me think so hard about the toxic positivity that we're exposed to and the shiny objects on Instagram and having teenagers, myself that are on social media.And it just made me think, how do we get better at being more thoughtful with what we're consuming online so that things like this don't happen?
[00:41:49] Nell
Yeah, I share a lot of those sentiments. I think for me, obviously it's very frustrating because I feel. Like, Belle didn't get the comeuppance that she so rightfully deserved and her victims deserved as well. And that is obviously not the fault of the show. The show itself, I think, portrayed the story quite well and clearly and, and sort of what went on before and after, but there is a lot of open loops to it. We didn't get the comeuppance, which is reality. That's real life. It's just such a fascinating story and one that unfortunately will be repeated in some way or another by some other guru at some point in the future.
[00:42:30] Mia
Over the last four years I've had lots of people question me about why I care so much about the gurus and, you know, you're smart Mia, shouldn't you put your energy to something else, some bigger fish, like oh don't worry about morons on the internet and Watching this series and then watching the one about Elizabeth Holmes really validates to me because these people are so dangerous. Like, so dangerous. Like I said, Val Gibson has killed people in my mind. So my view is that we need to stop the flow of money to gurus and we need to start the flow of money to legitimate experts in the health and wellness space, in the online business space, and that we need to discern fact from fiction better.
So that we can elevate, for lack of a better word, businesses that are really trying to change the world for the better versus the Bell Gibsons. And this is why I care so much about it. So anyway, if anything, it has just re energized my guru crusade.
[00:43:25] Janine
Which is good for everyone.
[00:43:27] Mia
More Mia rants to come, I guess. Uh, thank you so much. I know we had quite a few technical difficulties with this recording, this podcast, we muddled through. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time on such short notice, both Janine and Nell. Yeah, you had such interesting insights to share.
[00:43:45] Nell
Always willing to talk about true crime and marketing. Always.
[00:43:52] Janine
Me too, maybe we should start a podcast now.
[00:44:00] Mia
I would definitely tune into that.
[00:] Nell
Oh my god, don't tempt me with a good time. If we could find all the true crime marketing stories, that would be the best. Alright, watch this space, watch this space.
[00:44:45] Mia
All right. Thank you very much.
[00:44:12] Mia
Thank you. You listened right up until the end.
So why not hit that subscribe button and keep the good marketing rolling. Podcast reviews are like warm hugs and they're also the best way to support a small business. You can connect with me, Mia Fileman on Instagram or LinkedIn, and feel free to send me a message. I'm super friendly.
