Mia Fileman 0:05
Are you tired of marketing jargon and empty promises? Me too. I'm Mia Fileman, and this is Got Marketing. On the show I deep dive with marketing insiders to unpack successful campaigns. I didn't earn the nickname the Campaign Lady for nothing. Get actionable tips, learn from winning strategies and avoid falling victim to marketing fads and fakery.
Hello, friend, welcome to Got Marketing. Madmen gave us a window into the inner workings of ad agencies in the 1950s and 60s. There was a lot wrong with agencies then and there is still a lot wrong with them today. I've been on both sides of the fence first as a brand marketer, working with agencies and then on the agency side as an account director. The big question we're tackling today is whether the traditional agency model is broken.
Pat Langton 0:59
I think the old common model is slightly broken in the fact that they still charge by the hour, there's an incentive for agencies to spend time on jobs, which again, sucks for clients. You know, there's a lot of hidden costs. There's nothing really going there for clients. And we need to kind of have a more focus on what we actually sell. Agencies sell time. And that is a big problem. We're in the business of creativity. And that's first and foremost, what client should come to us for.
Mia Fileman 1:26
That was Pat Langton. He is the founder and chief creative guy at Hook Creative Studio. Hook was born out of frustration with long lead times high production costs and inefficiency. After selling his agency to hero McCann one year ago, he runs Hook with his brother Matt, welcome to got marketing. Pat.
Unknown Speaker 1:47
Hi, How are you going?
Mia Fileman 1:48
Hi. Really well, thank you.
Pat Langton 1:50
Yeah, excellent, great to be here.
Mia Fileman 1:53
It has been a very long time since high school. What have you been up to?
Pat Langton 1:58
It has been, gosh, when I start. I guess I'll start from the beginning a little bit. I kind of left school and, you know, did a lot of other stuff. And then went back to uni, started my career, I guess, in big agencies, you know, the Ogilvy and also McCann, I spent quite a bit of time there and then went to a small agency, and then went to London, and joined a big agency again, McCann again, and then came back and joined the same smaller agency, but as a partner. So it was quite a bit of a ride and got to kind of experience both sides of the coin, I guess, big agencies and small agencies. And there's great things in both, you know, bigger, bigger budgets and big agencies, and I guess wearing more hats and getting more involved in smaller agencies, you know, having probably more intimate, closer relationships with clients. And I guess, just get getting your hands dirty a bit more in the small agency, you get to just do more. At big agencies, you kind of stay in your lane, you can't really move out of that lane, because someone else does that job, right?
Which is again, big agencies, you've got the big budgets. Which is always great for a creative. You kind of get to think bigger, and anything is really possible. Having said that, I've done amazing stuff at small agencies. You've got to be more nimble, and in a sense you've got to be more creative. You've got to kind of come up with ways of doing things on a budget, which kind of makes the process a bit more creative.
Mia Fileman 3:26
It does because you've got to do more with less right?
Pat Langton 3:29
Yeah, 100% 100%
Speaker 1 3:31
Look, I guess that's that's where it got to we kind of built magnum opus into 15-Odd agency. And then we sold to hero and McCann, which is very odd, because they are still in the same building that I've started. I was sitting in the desk that I kind of started my career at, which was very bizarre, but but a lot of fun. did some great work there. And finished up mid last year. So I had to stay on for at least a year with the buyer.
Mia Fileman 4:00
Wow, so you're an ad guy for sure. Through and through. And you seem to have this like love affair with McCann that you can't avoid them.
Speaker 1 4:12
It's not intentional at all. Moving to London, it was the last place I actually thought that I'd end up that I kind of thought I'll be at some groovy, Shoreditch, new, cool agency and I ended up just McCann again, which was very bizarre. But it was a lot of fun. Like I said, we made some great work. We won a lot of awards was there, in a short stint. I was there for almost two years, won a silver Cannes Lion with Cleos. So yeah, if you don't know what Cannes Lions are it's basically the Oscars of the advertising industry. And so yeah, we did we did amazing stuff and it was an amazing experience.
Mia Fileman 4:50
So I actually worked with McCann when I was at Maybelline New York they were our agencies on St Kilda Road so like, you know, I would have to leg it, the 300 metres.
Speaker 1 5:01
We must have just missed each other because I worked on Maybelline and L'Oreal back in the day. It was some of the first clients I worked on, which was a great again a great experience. And they've changed a lot as well. So they're doing some interesting stuff these days.
Mia Fileman 5:16
Yeah, so I need to know how you went about selling your agency? What was that like? How did that? Did you intend to sell it? Or did they come shopping?
Speaker 1 5:25
Yeah, it was it was really bizarre. And it happened really, really quickly. Actually, we were looking actually to expand, we were in growth mode, we're looking to kind of purchase a small agency, actually, we had a another client that was a competitor. And so we needed to, we couldn't have them on the books. So we need to start a kind of a new boutique things. So we kind of were looking at shopping around for maybe a very boutique agency to kind of maybe purchase, and we ended up having a chat with Ben Lilly, who had recently kind of come in and purchase McCann, Australia. I don't know how he did that. And he just said, I don't know anybody, but I'm actually looking to buy and it kind of just snowballed from there and happened really, really quickly. We weren't really looking to sell at all. But you know, it alright. I had two business partners, both older than me. So they are in a different kind of, I guess, mindset than me. But I also saw there was a lot of opportunity to kind of do some interesting work with the clients that Hero/McCann had, you know, with the likes of Toyota and Maybelline and stuff like that. So, and we did, we did some great work while while so it was it was pretty crazy. It's one of those ones, like, selling a business at first is you're happy, you're proud. You know, it's an amazing moment. And then you get in there and you realize I've lost complete control. I've now got a boss. And so the reality really sinks in and you go, Oh, okay, I'm not used to. Yeah, it's bizarre, bizarre feeling to be honest.
Mia Fileman 6:54
And then you're like, don't fuck up my baby.
Pat Langton 6:59
It was also you just got all these clients that you kind of, I guess you have such close relationships with now they've kind of like, oh, what's happening Pat? I'm like, oh, that's fine. Just trust the process. Yeah. So it was very different for them as well. Yeah. And a bit of adjustment. But, you know, I think they're doing okay.
Mia Fileman 7:14
And so did you take a little bit of a break? Or did you just dive headfirst into starting a creative studio with your brother?
Speaker 1 7:20
Yeah, I did. I took it was about six months, really, I finished up mid last year. So I had a bit of time to think and really have a lot of conversations with clients and, and what they wanted and what they hated, you know, so I kind of took my time to really think about what I wanted to build. And if I wanted to build again, because you know, at first I was like, Oh, do I get another job, you know, just a creative director or chief executive, whatever you want to call them these days. And then I had a few conversations with my brother, and my wife, and I like you should start your own thing. Mostly because a few clients had kind of reached out to me and just said, Hey, look, I'd love to work with you again. So yeah, I kind of had time to really set up and get a model that that I thought would be great for clients, first and foremost, but also a big focus on creativity and video. So I had a noncompete as well, by the way, till Jan 1, so I couldn't actually launch until Jan 1 anyway, this year, right.
Mia Fileman 8:22
And what does that model look like, now? What do you think is a better model then?
Speaker 1 8:26
Where do I start with that? I think, we'll dive into the fact that I think the old kind of model is slightly broken in the fact that they still charge by the hour. I don't think creativity can be charged by the hour, it doesn't make any sense. There's an incentive if it's charged by the hour for agencies to spend time on jobs, which again, sucks for clients, you know, there's a lot of hidden costs that pop up that really kind of piss off clients. So, you know, there's nothing really going there for for clients, you know, and, and we need to kind of have a more focus on, you know, what we actually sell, I guess, agencies don't sell creativity anymore, they sell time. And that is a big, big problem.
Pat Langton 9:08
You know, we're in the business of creativity. And that's first and foremost, what client should come to us for a lot of time, I'm big fan of strategy. Don't get me wrong when I say this, but you know, a lot of time clients come and they've already spent 50k on research, you know, telling them that taste is the best option to go, you know, in terms of what message they should send, and then client then agency say, Well, we're going to do six weeks of research for you. And you've already they've already done the research, what you're going to find that's going to be different to them that they've already spent 50k on, you know, so I think there's a lot of issues there. And I think also the fact that there's a lot of agencies don't have in house production, you know, which is a major, major issue. I think, you know, the tax that gets put on for clients, you know, once that costs gets clients for production. It just adds up, right. And, you know, the budgets just aren't there anymore. You know, let's be honest, you know, the million dollar budgets that I started off when I, you know, 20 odd years ago, I just not. So we need to kind of be more nimble and rework the way that we work. And that's the kind of model I guess I wanted to set up, you know, my brother is 3D/2D editor, all the work. So we have all that in place. And so far clients are loving it, you know, they get the best of both worlds for not a cheap, but an affordable model.
Mia Fileman 10:34
So it's like a project fee instead of a what, how do you do the pricing model?
Speaker 1 10:39
I think there's a couple of ways you can do it. And I think it changes depending on the client, I understand that all clients have different budgets, right? There's not one model that fits everything. So you have to adjust, depending on what's needed. So yeah, there's there's value based, you can you can set a set fee, or there's a day rate of some sort, you know, and again, that can adjust, you know, depending on what the client needs and what they want. I think it's just about being flexible, really, and not being hard on your costs. And hourly rate is just this, you know, it just needs to be more flexible these days.
Mia Fileman 11:15
Yeah, I definitely echo your sentiments around the fact that the traditional agency model has become a lot less creative. And especially now that it's owned by these holding companies. And what a lot of people don't know is that it's there's a million advertising agencies, but they're all owned by five holding companies.
Totally.
So talk more about the in house production, because one of the biggest frustrations I guess I had as a brand manager was that we always outsourced our creativity, which meant that we never had those skills in house. And in fact, we were almost taught not to trust our own creativity, even though we were the closest to the brands like I lived and breathed Maybelline New York for three years. Yet, there was this delineation that if I ever had an idea that needed to go in a brief summary, that couldn't actually be
Pat Langton 12:09
Yeah, I think, gone are the days, you know, the agencies used to do, you know, Mad Men days, you know, I guess clients weren't as educated as they are now. And now, they are very educated and very savvy, you know, they have opinions and ideas. And that's where I kind of really wanted to go. And, you know, a lot of I work very closely with my clients now. And, you know, they, they, a lot of the time improve the work, as opposed to kind of make it worse they have, you know, they know their brand better than me, there's no way I can tell them with a with a smile on my face that I know their brand. They live and breathe every day. So they need to have an opinion, they need to have a voice in the creative process. So yeah. I always say that, like, my competitors aren't other agencies. It's Kevin on TikTok who's just clocked 14 million views. Yeah, I mean, this is what we're competing with where we're in the economy of attention, right. And these kids are doing amazing stuff online, getting the eyeballs, and this is what it's all about. It's about eyeballs. If you can't get the eyeballs, then then we're pretty fucked. You have to stand out these days. You know, we have no other choice.
I mean, when you think about the stats that I think it's if two thirds of brands disappeared tomorrow, nobody would care. People are actively paying not to see ads anymore. Right? Now, this is a massive problem. We have to solve this. Yeah, this is scary. It says, my job has got harder than ever it has in my lifetime. You know, there are more platforms, there's more content than ever before. You know, I used to deal with Billboard, radio and TV, right? That was pretty simple. Come up with a campaign, we kind of do three things. Now. It's just across the board. You know, you've got VR AR, AI, WTF. Like, what's the next thing? But theres just so much. And so we have no other choice than to stand out. And if you don't stand out, you may as well be wallpaper. So yeah, I mean, I've got that on my website. I do know that. It's important. You know, it's just a thing. The other thing I wanted to say it was like, people don't like ads, you know, just in general. The truth is they like content. And sometimes that's an ad. So as long as you start with entertainment and making someone feel something, you've got more chance of getting stuck into their brain, right? We see something like 4000 messages a day, probably more. Right. A brand needs to be one of those messages. Yeah, right. Just one and so to be that one message, you have to kind of do something crazy, or at least something interesting or something emotional, you know, something that kind of grabs their attention and sticks in their brain, because that's the media space that you want to activate. Yeah, it's not a billboard, those are just platforms.
Mia Fileman 15:08
Correct. And there are some incredible examples of brands who are leveraging advertainment with incredible results and suddenly we're watching a five minute advertising. The ones that come to mind is MODIBODY's period diaries, which was a five episode miniseries on Tik Tok, which clocked millions of views. And yeah, it was like they used content creators and influencers from Tik Tok to create this mini series. Another one was Forty Winks. And they did like this horror, kind of film, called the undead. There was five different characters, but they were all sleep deprived. And it was scary and eerie. And that was sensational. QR lingo nails their advertisement, absolutely, every time
Pat Langton 16:01
They do, big time. Look, liquid death is another one that comes to mind. They are doing incredible work, you know, started by an old ad guy as well, a creative. And he's he's just built that brand into something incredible, and really leveraged that entertainment value. You know, there's still ads, but they're just cool and fun. And you know, he's selling water in a can. it's not that crazy.
Mia Fileman 16:24
Yeah. It just, it just goes to show the power of a brand when we've got a commodity product, and how strong loyalty and affinity can be to a particular brand and particular persona of a brand. When the product is essentially the same. It's water.
Pat Langton 16:43
I mean, look.Yeah, he did it from the very, you know, the bottom up, right. So is branding was out there, you know, I guess he was tapping into kind of the environment, side of things. So, you know, everything about his brand was was was good. You know, and as long as you start there, you're in a good place, you know, because he had a really kind of vision for what he wanted to create. And he's really nailing it with the advertising as well, which, which also helps.
Mia Fileman 17:09
Marketing is a team sport. Join Marketing Circle and set sail with us. As a member, you get access to all our programs, including the beloved Campaign Classroom, our proprietary campaign builder, and one on one walking meetings with me. Plus, you'll be part of a tight knit community of savvy entrepreneurs and marketers wearing all the hats just like you. Designed for those who want to build standout brands. Our strategic and creative marketing membership is your ticket to future proofing your business. No fluff, no false promises, just real actionable strategies that work. Apply to join Marketing Circle today, and let's navigate those marketing stormy seas together.
So I'm super curious about how your creative studio has had to adapt, given social media platforms, social first campaigns, are you shooting on professional cameras? Are you shooting on iPhones? You know, what are you doing?
Pat Langton 18:08
It's a good question. I think it comes down to you know, what the brief is what what the content needs. The Lo-Fi content has its place. I think it's important. Yeah, I think these days, you know, the cameras that we've got these days is incredible. But there's also a place for high end content as well. I think it's not one or the other. I think even some people in advertising, marketing, might curse me now. But I still think TV is a space. I mean, you know, they still have eyeballs, MAFS still gets a million views. Yeah, that's a million eyeballs, right? The footy still gets heaps of views. So we can't dismiss that place. And I think with TV and stuff, you're probably still need to have that high end content, it also shows a certain type of brand that you are, you might kind of be viewed, it sends a message, the type of platform you live on. So it's not just the ad that it's the message sends it's it's the kind of intent so you know, if you're spending big money on an ad during MAFS, it kind of, you're a serious brand kind of says that. Yeah. And then there is this this place for Lo-Fi content. 100% I mean, you just have to get on TikTok and see how good things are going there. The content is incredible. The views. The eyeballs are incredible. So if you're not living in that space, you're dead. So I mean, look, I just I guess I have those conversations with with clients and you really depends on on what we're trying to achieve.
Mia Fileman 19:26
Yeah, I definitely still think that there's a huge role for TV. I've spent the last 10 years in regional areas where TV is actually very affordable.
Pat Langton 19:45
I am a big regional kind of pusher. You know, one of my clients is a home builder and I just say we got to get on regional TV. It's affordable. There are so many eyeballs. I went to Daylesford a couple of years ago, and everything shuts at six. And so they all go home and watch TV. Yeah, you just have to look out the window and just see lights on, and TVs kind of flashing in the windows. So, you know, there's big opportunities there for brands, and I think I think marketing people sometimes get lost in their own world. Like, I don't watch TV, so therefore nobody watches TV, you know, and I've heard those comments. And I'm like, Well, hang on a second. Yeah, I was doing an interview with some people that were buying a house. And, you know, they're like, Oh, we don't watch TV anymore. Oh, really? Do you watch the footy? He goes: Yeah. And so I was like: do you watch MAFS? Oh yeah it's my favorite show. That's TV. It's a broad statement. It's something that I guess people say because it sounds cool or something, I'm not sure. But it's still there. It still exists, and people still watch it. So we just can't dismiss it.
Mia Fileman 21:01
I completely agree. And I agree with what you said about how being on TV is a positioning strategy as well as a flex.
Pat Langton 21:08
It's a flex, it is. It's like when you did a billboard back in the day, it's a big billboard. It's a flex, right? It says, Okay, I'm serious. I've got serious money here. Yeah.
Mia Fileman 21:17
Yeah. But also like I'm an integrated marketer to my core. So for me, it's all about this multi channel approach where people are on TikTok, they want to see your brand, people turn on Married at First Sight, they want to see your brand, and then they drive on St Kilda Road, and they want to see your brand. And like it's those touch points. So actually, interestingly, during the Mad Men era, so this, this episode is got a bit of a Mad Men theme to it. So in the 1950s and 1960s, there was this rule of seven in advertising, which is that audiences needed seven touch points before they would take action. And I had a look at some recent data that said that the rule of seven is now 30. So it actually takes 30 touch point.
Pat Langton 22:01
Oh no, we're stuffed.
Mia Fileman 22:04
Yeah, so it's not radio, or TV or TikTok, it's ads.
Pat Langton 22:09
I always found it weird, just like growing up in kind of ad land, and there was, you know, these digital agencies popping up. And I was like, why would you just be one thing, it's not doing your client, any justice, when you you know, just one thing it should be integrated should be what's best for this product, you know, whether that could be outdoor, there could be TV that could be there could be digital, it could be a website, you know, it could be anything. So I always find that bizarre. And I've noticed, in recent years, a lot of those digital agencies have kind of more turned into a more traditional thing, because it just doesn't make sense just to do one platform, right? It's like saying, I'm a billboard agency. You know, it's like, why would you be that? You know, I love outdoor don't get me wrong, but yeah, just it's not doing your client justice. Right?
Mia Fileman 22:57
Yeah, I love outdoor, i feel like, out of home is so under potentialized. Especially from smaller brands.
Pat Langton 23:05
Yeah. It's more affordable now with the digital billboards as well. You can't skip it.
Mia Fileman 23:10
Exactly.
Pat Langton 23:12
Which is also awesome. Because, you know, again, that's a big problem in our industry. You know, like I said before, you know, people paying not see and people are skipping ads. Billboards, you can't skip them. So it's a big time. I'm actually working on a campaign at the moment, which hasn't launched yet. But yeah, very outdoor focus campaign.
Mia Fileman 23:30
But like there's a real push to get us out of our cars and catching the tram, catching the train, catching the bus. I don't drive in Canada. So I'm constantly in public transport. And I have seen so many brilliant campaigns on the side of a bus or the back of a bus on a bus shelter. Like it's such a good placement.
Pat Langton 23:49
Canada is doing some great stuff. I'm pretty sure one agency there I think it's called Rethink. They're doing some excellent work over there. Yeah. So there's some really good independent agencies coming through.
Mia Fileman 23:58
Yeah, we don't have Uncle Toby's, we've got Quaker Oats like that's the heritage oats brand. And Canadians are. They love their oats. And Quaker has just released a brand new brand campaign global brand campaign. And I bawled my eyes out like it was such a good story.
Pat Langton 24:22
I'm pretty sure that's the one done by Uncommon.
Mia Fileman 24:25
Yes, yes.
Pat Langton 24:27
Again, a brilliant agency. And I'm been Neils Leonard, they're absolutely killing it, especially in the outdoor space. Actually. They're doing some brilliant advertising.
Mia Fileman 24:36
Yeah, there was just this like story about a dad and a Son. And it's time lapses from when they are young until growing up. And then the background track was Nick Mulvies "fever to the form" and I was in shreds.
Pat Langton 24:55
This is what I was saying before, you know, the people watch content. Yeah, and sometimes that content is an ad, right? And yeah, that's a perfect example of that, you know, tapping into emotions of people. That's our job.
Mia Fileman 25:06
And nostalgia and storytelling, all of those emotional versus, you know, functional. Oh, our oats are steelcut. What's the difference? Like? What's the difference? Really?
Pat Langton 25:19
Yeah, it's sometimes you know, you when you look at kind of, you know, Nike or Apple, for instance, you know, they don't sell their products, right? They sell an emotion. Nike sells achievement. Apple sells creativity. They sell computers. Yeah, they've really tapped into that. And I think a lot of brands kind of seeing that and going, Okay, I want some of that. Yeah, look, they've had time to build up to that. But still, I think if you start there, you're really kind of tapping into something.
Mia Fileman 25:45
I agree. Can we go back and talk about some other reasons why the traditional advertising model is broken. And I'm not going to name names, but I did work at a creative agency after I left Maybelline. And what really, I guess, shocked me was just how much of the work our interns did, not the actual account director, group account director, Creative Director, like we were paying these people pittance, they were still in university. And they did I would, dare I say most of the work.
Pat Langton 26:20
yeah, look, it's a big problem. I can talk years about the pitch process, but a lot of time, you've got these senior people from agencies going into pitches, you know, selling their product, and then the client doesn't see them ever again, you know, I always say there's only three things in advertising, you need to know, it's relationships, relationships, relationships, right? And if you don't have those, then you're doing the client an injustice. I've never done any work with a client without having a good relationship with them. I think that's let's, if you start there, you know, you're starting off on a bad foot, right? Like you said, if you've got juniors doing all the work, when you sold this dream, you're going to be with me and her and then not to really see them? Again, it's just it's bad form. So that's one of the bad things. I think there's lots of others, like I discussed, you know, I think timesheets is just, it's ridiculous. I don't think I'll ever do a timesheet ever again, I've made a promise to myself and my brother. And I said, We're never doing timesheets, it's just not going to be a thing at our agency. Again, it's old school. I mean, you got to remember, this stuff has been happening. The agency model is based on a model that's 40 plus years old, the way that agencies used to make money was through media, actually. So they all had media in house, they'll take 15% of whatever they spent. And then media agencies thought, oh, okay, this is actually where the money's at. We'll branch off and create our own mini agencies of just doing media. Now that really stuffed up our industry in terms of advertising industry, because they're like, Oh, how do we how do we charge now? Oh, we just charge like accountants do? By the hour. And I'm like, well, nobody kind of stepped back and went, Oh, is this a good idea? It kind of just rolled and happened. And, and it kind of stuck that life for 40 odd years, and it hasn't changed.
Now, that's a bad, that's not good. You know, we need to be at the forefront of innovation. And these agencies are run by accountants now. And so we need to really look at ourselves as an industry and think about what we're doing. Right and what we're doing wrong, you know, as a broader sense, and, look, it's really hard for big agencies to change a model that's a legacy model. It is, I would say almost impossible. Yeah. It's the the independent agencies coming through that are really kind of going to change the game, I think,
Mia Fileman 28:51
but they're losing out because there are brands like Koala, Dollar Shave Club, so many brands who are building agencies within the business. Yes, yeah. And as a result, are really innovating. Yeah, they've enhanced their creativity. And they're giving this agency model a real run for their money that I feel like the clock is running out on this on this model.
Pat Langton 29:13
Yeah, big time. Look, a lot of my clients have in house designers now. But they still outsource their creativity as such. You know, I think it's really important. A lot of other clients that I've worked with in the past, they had in house designers, I think, doing that kind of day to day stuff. I think it's important to have in house designers just because there's so much stuff that just needs to be done. You know, but in when it comes to real creativity, I still think there's a place for an external view, you know, because I think sometimes you get stuck in your own world as a brand. I know I do. Yeah, I think most important brand that I have is my own. Hook should be my most important, I should work on that more and more. You do find it hard when you're a business owner trying to work on other people. was brands, but it is super important to me. how I'm perceived in the world is in should mean a lot to me and, and, you know, working on the business, and having those internal designers or whatever I think is super important. And a lot of my clients have them and and I try and work with them as well, you know, so we can kind of work together and do something great.
Mia Fileman 30:20
Yeah. And what do you think about the, like the pitching process, this idea that, you know, a client shops around, they get all these ideas from a million different agencies. That agency doesn't get paid for those ideas, but then the idea gets, suddenly just gets brought to life and you're just like: hang on. Wasn't the idea we pitched?
Pat Langton 30:41
I'll try and say this without swearing. Okay. Look, it's completely broken. And it's a silly process. Really? Yeah. I don't know where it came from, or how it started to be honest. But it's, it's, it's stupid, you know, there's no way that I can come in and tell, say you, about your brand, from nothing. Like I said, a relationship is the most important part of building a brand and kind of working together and kind of, and for me to come in and say, Oh, here's a campaign, you should kind of do this, this and this. I mean, what a waste of time really. You know, because a lot of the time a lot of those, those ideas and campaigns that you present in that, that pitch process don't even come to life anyway. So I don't know exactly what's achieved there. It's kind of maybe seeing how they think. But it's like, if you want to see how they think, go to their website, they've got all their work on there, you know. So I think it's a two way street there. I think clients need to have a bit more respect for, for agencies and agencies need to kind of, I don't know, work out some better way of communicating or doing or even just telling them saying, Look, this is this is not a good process. We don't want to be involved and say no, but nobody's gonna say that, because the money's there. At this point, I'm not pitching for any anybody, you know, all our clients, are through existing relationships or relationships that I've built over having conversations. I'm not really interested in the pitch process at all. Whether that changes in the future when I want the money? I don't know. But I'm not really focused on on on the money side of things. I'm focused on doing good work.
Mia Fileman 32:24
Yeah sure. I think that the pitch process needs to, I don't know if it was originally like this, but this idea that you're just pitching your agency, where you're saying, this is our agency, this is how we work. This is our philosophy. This is the kind of work this is how we approach a program, a project. This is the team. And then it's more of a who we are pitch, as opposed to here is three campaign ideas that are essentially spaghetti that we throw at a wall hoping something's gonna stick, right.
Pat Langton 32:54
I'm gonna use spaghetti in the future. I like that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's just, it's crazy. You know, and I think, a lot of time, you know, I think the first question you should be asking your client is like, why are you here? Why have you come to me? You know, let's start there. Work out, you know, what, what interested you about my business? You know, let's have that conversation and see where that goes. And if it's oh, look, I love the work that you did for blah, blah, then great. Okay, so you want a bit more of that stuff? Cool. I could do that. But I'm not going to show you a bunch of stuff. You know, because let's talk about what you need. Exactly. Let's talk about your brand. Tell me, what's your problem? What's your biggest problem? Yeah. Agencies never ask: What's your biggest problem? What's your biggest problem in your business? And how can I solve that? Yeah. Let's start there. And take it from there. Let's not do three campaigns that like you said, spaghetti at the wall.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so Hook is a video focused, creative studio. And you work with your brother?
Yeah.
Mia Fileman 33:55
What is that? Like? I love Harry. Harry, shout out to you. Love you. But I can't work with you, mate. There's just no way.
Pat Langton 34:02
I want to say yes, we do video, but I guess what I sell is creativity. I want say that's where I want to start. And video is a big part of that these days. You know, I don't want to just say that we just do video. It's not. It's part of our offering. You know, we do artworking we do AI we do everything. But just because of the world that we live in video is a huge part of that these days, you know, all you have to do is go to Instagram or Tiktok. And all it is is videos now. Look, I'm working with my brother it's a funny one. Well, the truth is, is that I've worked with him for years. I've hired him as a editor when I was at Hero, and when I was at Magnum Opus, through the years where you know, agencies still hiring. Right? So I was like, well hang on. Why should I just hire him? Why isn't he part of the essence of the agency and let's start there. And what I've really noticed is clients love that because they love videos, because it's a unique, I guess, thing that they can't do sometimes in house. A lot of like I said, a lot of them have designers, but they don't have editors or anything like that.
So, look, and I've upskill myself, I can edit now, you know, so I saw that coming in quite a few years ago. So it's probably about 10 years ago, I was like, hang on, I think I need to upskill. And it did really help my career big time, you know, because I could just edit stuff myself and bring ideas to life a lot quicker. My wife is a, I guess a influencer. And even now she edits all the stuff, you know, in the apps, and everyone's got getting those skills or young, the younger generation just going to have those skills that I guess were less accessible to us growing up. So I think everyone should be upskilling. But yeah, like, you know, like I said, my wife is really good at editing now. And she does all the videos. She's getting millions of views. It's crazy. So, but we are working with my brother, he's great. So I still got sidetracked. Look, like, again, I just wanted to start a business that that kind of had that in house capability and not have to rely on a production company all the time. Don't get me wrong. There's some great production companies out there. But, you know, I think that just the work, the whole industry needs to change because everyone's relying on everyone else. And I think we, as agencies just need to kind of look internally and go, Okay, what can we do better for clients? Yeah, how can we kind of give them everything that they need these days, and videos are definitely one of those.
Mia Fileman 36:39
I think it's very clever, because their traditional agency has been practically shut out to smaller brands, like you need a minimum 20 to 50k. Before you can even get a look in even at a smaller agency, like I worked at the Taboo group and like, I don't think we ever did a project for less than $50,000. And that was, you know, 10 years ago. Whereas smaller brands, they have some budget, and they it seems like what you've done at Hook is cut out a lot of the middlemen.
Pat Langton 37:10
Essentially yeah. I'll probably piss off a few people in the industry, to be honest. But I think what we have to we have to kind of just look at ourselves and go, you know, how can we make this model better for everyone? Because there are some great small brands out there, that you can build into big brands. How good would that be, you know, like getting a kind of startup and finessing that into something that's, you know, a big brand, you know. They're gonna stick with you for life if you make that happen, right. Yeah. So I'm all about long term, not short term gain. I'm not really interested in trying to get that one job and then move on. I like working with clients. I think, like I said, they're more educated than ever before. That, you know, they're smart. They're creative, you know, that their favorite part of the day is usually when I present to them, you know, because it's a fun bit, right? It's the fun part of that they're probably doing sales figures, and, you know, Excel sheets. Oh, yeah. Like, no thanks. But yeah, like that part of their day, you know, having that conversation about creativity. And what we're going to do for the future of the business is the fun part of their job. So let's, let's do it together.
Mia Fileman 38:13
Yeah, I completely agree. I think that that's some that's really a sensible approach to it. And I wouldn't mind about pissing people off in the industry. It's it's a very like, yeah, it's a there's a lot of cat scratching in there.
Pat Langton 38:28
Especially advertising, there's a lot of egos. Sometimes creative people have egos. It's still around, unfortunately, especially in ad agencies. And I think it just needs to change. It can't be the clients versus creative, it can't be the creatives versus account managers, we have to work together and like, make good work together and not be fighting internally and saying, Oh, the fucking client didn't buy this. So well. Maybe it was wrong. Maybe, maybe, maybe you're wrong. Yeah. So we just have to kind of look at ourselves and, and not be so arrogant. Yeah, I think that's the problem. Our industry is arrogant.
Mia Fileman 39:07
It is and I've seen it on both sides. Like when I was brand side, it was like, Oh, the agency, they just smoke weed, do coke on the tables. And you know, they're not serious marketers. They're just like, you know, they're wearing hoodies. And, like, we didn't take the advertising agency too seriously. We thought about them as the kids that get to have fun and play with their little squishy balls. And then and then when I was agency side, we were like, the client is boring as batshit the client just loves their AC Nielsen scan track data. We would make fun of each other. There was no like, hey, we we each have our role to play here.
Pat Langton 39:48
Everything you said there was just. I do like a squishy ball. But yeah, no, you're 100% right. I think, you know, we've got to stop fighting, and we got to work together to make good work. Yeah. I've never made anything that hasn't been a collaboration, or anything good. That hasn't been a collaboration, that involved a lot of people. And the client is definitely one, you know. Sometimes you do need to have those awkward conversations with clients, sometimes they are completely wrong and, and, you know, make the logo bigger as well. It's not going to change. It's not going to change your sales. Yeah, those kinds of things are there. They're small things that they shouldn't even worry about. So looking, you do have to have sometimes an awkward conversation. But that's fine. I think that's part of the business.
Mia Fileman 40:31
Yep, definitely. All right. Well, we're fast running out of time. But I'd love to end on hearing which brands or campaigns that you've seen recently that you think are just absolutely nailing it. It can be something that you worked on, or it can just be,
Pat Langton 40:46
Look, I think, Uncommon Studio in London is doing some fantastic stuff at the moment. Their stuff for B&Q is great. Their outdoor, all their outdoor is great. Mischief in the States are doing amazing. And these are all independent agencies, by the way. I think a lot of those independent agencies are doing just amazing work and coming in from a totally different angle. So there's so many campaigns, where do I start? Yeah, I mean, in Australia, there's great agency Bear Meets Eagle on Fire. They're doing incredible work, you know, small shop that just they've just won Telstra. Yeah. I mean, that's crazy. Yeah.
Mia Fileman 41:27
Did you see the NRMA Campaign for insurance? Yes, yes. Holy moly. That was so good. Yeah, I'll link it in the show notes. Because I think everyone needs to see that NRMA campaign. That was genius.
Pat Langton 41:40
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And look, they're just doing some, just these independents that are popping up in Australia even, you know, even Hasson and CO, they're doing some great stuff. Sunday Gravy, look, there's some really good, strong independent agencies just doing great work. And that has to be applauded, because it is harder than ever before, to do great work, and to stand out. So in terms of general I don't have like a favorite campaign. I just think a few agencies are just really killing it at the moment. And and just coincidentally, they're all independent. So that's saying something right. I think you know, that there maybe is a shift, there is a change in the air, which is a really good thing for everyone, and especially clients.
Mia Fileman 42:22
I completely agree. Yeah. And I feel like a lot of these independent agencies are also working with a lot of purpose led brands. So brands like ThankYou, and Who Gives a Crap and ZeroCO and and I think we all have a responsibility to, as you said earlier, try to get those small startup brands to become big brands, because those are the brands that are going to clean up this frickin planet for us.
Pat Langton 42:46
Absolutely. Look, if there's any startups out there, I'm happy to work with you. But yeah, it's really cool. And I do have hope. I'm not bitter and old advertising, Don Draper guy yet. I just I do have hope for industry. I think there's there's a lot of creative still to come. Still a lot of creativity still to come. Yeah, I just I just have hope for the industry just because of all these independents coming through.
Mia Fileman 43:12
Yeah, I think that the takeaway from this episode is that no one ever had a good stand out remarkable, memory memorable, creative idea, by tracking their time sitting at their desk. And like having a corporate overlord on their shoulder going, Pat, it's taking quite a while for you to crack this nut.
Pat Langton 43:35
Look I've cracked briefs in the briefing, you know, sometimes it was the first idea. How do I charge for that in hours? Yeah, you just can't.
Mia Fileman 43:43
Yeah, yeah.
Pat Langton 43:44
So. So yeah. And sometimes it's when I'm doing a bath with my kids. You know, I'm sitting there, you know, I'm on my phone, I'd write a script. That's pretty good. And you know, then you see it come to life. And so, I mean, how do you charge for that, you know, the hourly rate, you just can't you have to, you have to change the correct creativity. Creativity doesn't come in hours.
Mia Fileman 44:05
Brilliant. Absolutely perfect place to end. Thank you so much. Thank you. I will put all of your details for her creative studio in the shownotes. But thank you for being so generous with your time and your experience with us today. Thank
Pat Langton 44:17
you so much.
Mia Fileman 44:19
Thank you, you listened right up until the end. So why not hit that subscribe button and keep the good marketing rolling. Podcast reviews are like warm hugs, and they're also the best way to support a small business. You can connect with me, Mia Fileman on Instagram or LinkedIn and feel free to send me a message. I'm super friendly.
