Mia Fileman 00:05
Life's too short for crap marketing. The Got Marketing? Podcast is for marketers, business owners and entrepreneurs who want marketing that's fun, accessible and meaningful. Join me, Mia Fileman for inspired chats with my favorite marketing insiders about marketing that works, campaigns that inspire and the fads, fakery and false prophets to avoid.
Hello, friend, do I have a creative episode lined up for you today? This is so exciting. We are talking about some of my favorite things like branding, and rebranding campaigns and of course creative strategy.
00:46
Really simply, I just make people aware of their own brand. Sometimes people need an outside perspective. Sometimes they just need creative input. And it's those gaps that I initially go in and try and either fill or work out what the pathway is.
Mia Fileman 01:02
That was Renee Wallace, a fervent advocate for all things design, brand, female founders and service based industry. Renee embodies a no nonsense powerhouse approach to fueling brand success through her design services offered at Cultivate. Welcome to the Got Marketing show, mate, how are you?
01:23
I'm great. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
Mia Fileman 01:25
Thanks so much for coming and talking about all my favorite things today.
01:29
I'm happy to talk about all my favorite things with you.
Mia Fileman 01:33
Amazing. Well, let's kick off with a little bit of background because you are a multi passionate and talented entrepreneur with a really diverse business background. Why don't you talk me through a bit of a timeline.
Renee Wallace 01:45
Okay, it is a diverse background, that's for sure. I grew up in Orange, in the central west of New South Wales, I had to leave to finish studying design. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to stay and do it there. We ended up in Canberra where I finished, in my last year of study, I ended up working for a studio which a year after that, I actually purchased it and operated it for 10 years, which was very successful and had a lot of fun. And obviously being a business owner at the ripe old age of 20 learnt a lot. And then we popped out our first baby and had this itch to kind of, I don't know, we wanted to explore a little bit like you, Mia, we actually decided that we were going to move overseas. And we're all set to relocate to Christchurch. But unfortunately, earthquakes had a different plan for us. And so we ended up just about to turn 30 pregnant with our second child, homeless, jobless, living at my parents here in the Southern Highlands. So the universe certainly had a different mission than what we had anticipated on the horizon for us.
So we very quickly settled here into the highlands, it's very much like Orange. It's a great big country town vibe, which really suited us and we settled in here like pigs in mud very, very quickly. But again, that itch wasn't gone, it was still there. So wasn't long after we moved here that we started to look for an opportunity to work together. And meanwhile, while this was happening, I was still designing and saying yes to everything in the background as you do in the freelance capacity of mindset, you'd say yes, and then figure out how to do things later on. So I really enjoyed that. Because it gave me lots of opportunities to work with different industries, obviously, coming from the agency, I'd work with a lot of industries as well. And then opportunity again, a bit of Eat Pray Love moment in Italy, we decided to open a restaurant when we got back to the Highlands, which we did. And we opened Birch, which we operated for six years, which was intense and incredibly satisfying. incredibly stressful. And I thought I learned a lot in the first business. But Birch was certainly a learning curve like I had never experienced before.
And then we also opened Birch store, which was a pantry, profitable homeware store that kind of was a product of was a bit of a COVID baby, really that one. And then about two and a half years ago, I started getting lots and lots of people coming to me and saying, Hey, I really love what you've done with Birch, your brand is so strong, you've got such a really loyal following lots of people who engage with you, you seem to be creating things all the time. How do you do that? What do you do? And so Cultivate sort of eventuated very quietly in the background. I didn't want to make a hoopla about it because I thought it was just a five minute fad that people were asking me these questions, but it got to the point where I couldn't ignore it.
So I developed an online course that I delivered for eight weeks. I think I wanted eight or nine people and ended up getting 12 and 15, Somewhere around there, to register for it. Who after they’d finished the course said that's great. I'm really glad I know how to do it, but I don't want to, I want you to do it. For me. I ended up having all these clients I didn't know I needed running a restaurant, raising two kids owning a store. It was quite psychotic there for 18 months, and then again universe stepped in last year, and the catalyst of the consequence of many catalysts, actually, that arose was that we closed the restaurant and we closed the store. And at the start of this year, I stepped full time back into designing full time. And it's been a whirlwind, I kind of feel like it's not my first business. So I kind of really should know what I'm talking about. But I kind of also have all the angst and anxiety that comes with starting a new business as well. So that's kind of it in a nutshell. There's lots of stories in there. But yeah, we've done a short podcast, so I won’t dwell on them too much.
Mia Fileman 05:34
Oh, that's so fascinating. I've got so many questions. First of all, working with your partner?
05:40
Oh, yes. It's crazy. Before we did the restaurant, we actually had wanted to work together for a very long time, we're very complementary, as in that we're very different. So Glen’s skill set and my skill have a vastly different so we use that to the strength, I think we use that to the best strength that we could. But there is that point in a relationship where you're living with someone working with someone where everything becomes about logistics. And that was a very fine line to balance. And I know lots of women talk about, especially female founders talk about the work life balance and how they achieve that, as far as I'm concerned, balance is bullshit. You just have to work out what works for you. And I know you've spoken about this before on the podcast. And I think the acceptance that I have had is that what works for me is very different to what works for everybody else. But I'm fine with that if it, like that's nobody else's business other than my own. So and I kind of champion people who can do that and go, you know, what, I'm not going to transcribe, to the shoulds and the coulds and what everyone's telling me, I want to make this work for me in the best way that I can and having a creative mind, you actually can't turn that off. So whether you're working with your partner or working with people you don’t know, like our gorgeous chef that we had at the restaurant, he used to hate it when I walked in and would go hey, what about because he knew that I've been awake since 3am, pondering an idea and working out all the many facets of how to make that happen. So I think I have a very, very supportive partner who just lets me go, he doesn't mind me elbowing him at 3am with a stupid idea and either talking me off the ledge or telling me that's so good, but you need to wait till 7am to talk to me about it. So I'm very, very lucky in that way. And I think he's very supportive in knowing how my head works, and just when I'm on a roll, it's like, I suppose when you're an artist, and you get in the zone, you just let them go, and then pick them up at the end and work out how it's all gonna roll. So it was very lucky to have him I think, but I know, there's probably only a finite amount of people that I could work in that capacity, so I'm probably lucky, actually very lucky to have him.
Mia Fileman 07:55
Yeah, exactly the same with a turning off of the creative ideas. And it's, it's taken a lot to figure out how to get it to just be quiet for a little bit so that I can rest.
If you can, let me know, that'd be great.
The only thing that I have found that works for me is yoga, and a specific form of yoga, if it's to lie down asana, that's not happening.
08:19
Do my meal planning in those moments in yoga,
Mia Fileman 08:22
thatt's not what we're supposed to do. Tune into your body, tune into your breath. So the only thing that works is like it's quite an active yoga where you're doing an inversion, for example, you're in a headstand or a handstand. And so let your mind wander, you're literally going to fall and could hurt yourself. I mean, I'm not a spring chicken anymore. So I have to be very, very careful when I'm doing inversions. And so it's the only thing that gets me to stop thinking about creative ideas and just focus on Okay, is my core tightened, am I in a straight line? Am I lifting up from my shoulders, like just going through the mental checklist of what needs to happen to keep me in that pose. And then 45 minutes later, I realize, I actually haven't thought about anything other than my practice today. So that's one thing. And then the second thing is just, which is a recent discovery, and that is skiing. For similar reasons. You know, I'm, this is my second time skiing ever. And I'm in the Canadian Rockies, which is not like beginner school. And you know, I'm very aware of my own mortality, and I'm over here in Canada. And you know, I don't want to break a leg and so again, I'm, I'm up and down these mountains, and I'm just 100% focused on making sure I don't stuck it that I've been able to turn my brain off, but those are really the only two times even watching a Netflix show. I'll have a notebook and I'll just be like, pause I need to go write down something.
09:58
Yeah, the only moments I find or catch myself relaxing is when I'm driving. And I think it's because it's a known activity. So there's a certain amount that you can do where it's just a given you just know to go through the motions, but you obviously still have to be a certain amount of aware. And I think it's that half turning off of your brain. Because, it is a bit similar to you, it's that different, or that change of focus. But it's usually the moments, those are the moments where the solutions fly through. Like, it's the moment that you actually get quiet. That all the things that you've been pondering or stressing about or deliberating over, or know it's not quite right. Those are the moments that they come flooding through. Yeah, I tried skiing, but I went into a tree. So I don't think I'm focused enough to continue to do that.
Mia Fileman 10:45
It's interesting that we've got travel insurance, and they're like, the days that you go skiing, you actually have to take out supplementary insurance because it's that's how dangerous it is. Oh, great.
10:57
Oh, my gosh, not can’t deal with that stress. Will be the entire time freaking out.
Mia Fileman 11:01
So what would you say are the main problems that you solve for customers? Or maybe I should phrase that a bit more positively. It's not all about problems, but what opportunities, because you do a lot, you’re graphic design, creative strategy, creative direction, brand strategy? If you were to summarize that into like, well, what is that opportunity that you help people seize?
11:23
I think I really simply just make people aware of their own brand. I think there's a lot to be said, from what that awareness or the potential that comes from that awareness and how that brain can then seize that. And look, that's a different journey for everybody. I think sometimes, people need an outside perspective, sometimes they just need creative input, sometimes, they need to actually rein it in, because they've gone a little too crazy. And it's those gaps that I initially go in and try to either fill or work out what the pathway is for them to achieve what it is that they want to achieve. If they've come to me, it's usually because something's not working, or it doesn't feel quite right or something has been ineffective or something like that, if they're starting out, it's a different stage. But it's still the same sort of that incubation development process. And you still need to be before you start anything, you still need to know what your brand is going to be.
So the biggest struggle, I think I see is people who are managing their brand inconsistently and out of micro problems. So so many businesses have a problem, they find a band aid and they think that that is the solution. So for instance, I was asked recently from someone, I just need a design, I just need a brochure design that I'm going to put in the tourist information center, because I need people to come to my Celador. So yeah, absolutely, I can send you a quote for a brochure design. But at the end of the day, it's actually not going to solve the problem. And they might want to post more, or they might want to put ads in local newspapers. But again, like whilst they're great tools, it's not actually solving the problem, they need to step back and go, Well, why have people stopped coming to my cellar door, and then from that basis, then work out what the strategy is to get that audience reengaged or find a new audience if something has changed.
So a brand who doesn't evolve or sorry, a business who doesn't evolve their brand, as it evolves and grows or plateaus or declines, then or manages it consistently, you don't see consistent results, you see these Band Aid approaches coming out more and more frequently. And I think if people put a little bit more value and a little bit more time and energy and invest in that evolution of their brand, rebrands or restructures, or refreshes wouldn't actually be as prevalent as what they are. It's a little bit, I guess, a little bit of the do more about the prevention as opposed to the solution. And I think we'd have a lot more successful brands happening.
Mia Fileman 14:02
Hmm, you makes such a good point. Like there's this common misconception that people think If only more people knew that I existed, I would have more customers. So this is why we see so many people go and over invest in like Facebook ads, right? Because they're just like, Oh, my problem is awareness. I just need more people to know I exist. It's actually not the case. It's not a lack of awareness, per se. It's a lack of why you? Why should I go to your cellar door? There's a million brochures in the Information Center. But why would I want to pick up that one?
14:36
100%. Sorry, I recently had a client who had been well established, they were a COVID Baby. They're an E commerce business. They had reached out to me and said, we actually think this has a lot more potential. We thought this was going to be a five minute business that was going to happen while we were in lockdown. And it had gone on, it had trickled on. It wasn't doing gangbusters but it was certainly growing but slowly and they said we actually think there's a bit of potential here. So I came in, we did a full review of the strategy, we did a full rebrand. Now this audience, I'm talking hundreds, like it's not many. And we did a massive launch last year, we re-launched last year to the few 100 followers, we instilled an EDM strategy, a PR strategy, and a consistent social media strategy. And they had their biggest Christmas ever, with 100 less followers than they did the year before.
Wow.
So for me, like it's just engagement, you just have to be in the faces of the right people at the right time. It doesn't matter how many there are, if you're speaking to 10, if we’re speaking to 10000. As long as those people are invested and engaged in what you're doing, and feel a connection or a loyalty, and that's what you build with the brand, then it doesn't matter how many you have, it matters about the core, it comes down to the quality of what you're delivering to those those people. So for them, it was a phenomenal result. It was for them, they 100% thought it was worth the investment. And it's now put us into a position this year where we can leverage so much more. Like obviously, I wanted to reach for the stars last year, but we've paced it out over three years. So that growth is consistent for them, and the brand and everything that goes with their brand, their identity, their communication, the messaging, all of that will evolve over the next three years. What we did last year is not going to be relevant this Christmas, because we've been there, done that. So this year is all about different messaging, a different target, different photoshoots all the rest of it just to help that brand, appear that it's evolving, and not just being this one offer that is consistent.
Mia Fileman 16:30
And what industry are they in?
16:31
They are in the gift boxing industry online. So the competition's pretty rife here in Australia. Yeah, it was actually insane. I was freaking out, because you're looking at numbers like these are not very many eyeballs. But the conversion rates were through the roof, like we had a 60 plus percent open rate on every e-newsletter. I think they ended up exceeding their peak sale was that Christmas over the second lockdown here in New South Wales. And they exceeded that by 40%, I think, with 100 less followers than what they had then.
Mia Fileman 17:06
So it's so true. You don't; it's not about the quantity of followers or even people on your email list. I mean, we're served ads every single day, a million of them. But I think we really need to spend a lot more time analyzing our own behavior, and then analyzing user behavior. And why did I stop on that ad? What was it about that particular ad that stopped me and that I read it? What was it about that email that I read to the end, what was about that Instagram post that I saved and really like, make notes of what it is because that's what we're looking for. It's not just putting a brochure in a visitor center, it's making sure that that brochure is being picked up.
17:44
100%. And I think you just sounded like the inner monologue in my head that every time I open my inbox every morning, and there's a gazillion e-newsletters there it is, it's like well, I know these people like that chick had a really great message last week, this guy was talking about this, that was kind of interesting, I'll open up, I'm not engaged, you close it down. And I probably won't read the next three. It's a really interesting that customer behavior. And certainly that pathway that people take in engaging with brands is I love it, because it's never the same thing. It's so so different. And you see people talking about it all the time, all over social media and people who are talking, like especially the unboxing, like how people go through an unboxing. And what it is that they pick up on. And how they open those boxes, I think is really interesting because it picks up on what they're connecting with. So some people will comment on the wrapping or the packaging, some people just get to the product, some people will talk about the conversation they had with the person that sent them the package. So it's a very different thing. Each time that you experience that and what people pick up on is always different. But I think the misconception that a lot of brands have is well, this is what I offer. And this is how people engage it. And they're not open to what that spectrum of engagement can look like. And I think that does a lot of brands a lot of disservice. So I think it's changing, but it's a very slow push. And just by making people aware of what to be aware of is starting to change, I guess people's value in how they value their brands and how they can then utilize that to fulfill obviously their financial and social impact requirements that they want for their business as well.
For sure.
Mia Fileman 19:25
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So you help brands with their visual and creative identities and brandings. And the result of that is like, as we talked about, it's a brochure or it's a collateral, it's a logo. But before we get to the physical assets, you undertake brand and creative strategy. And I'd really love to understand your process around this.
20:28
Sure. So for me, it's really getting to know the brands actually, honestly, it's like getting a slug in your bra fitted. It's intimate, it's a little bit itchy, it's intense. But when you find that right fit, it's like angels are singing. So for me, I like to go really, really deep and assess everything from competitors, perceptions, reviews, morale, ethos. I'm talking to staff, if I can get the opportunity to the history of the business, their failures, their successes, how people are currently engaging with them, compared to how potentially they were being engaged with, when they were more successful than what they are now, what they offer, or their product range is. And I'd go over every speck of collateral, visual identity, every customer pathway with a fine tooth comb.
So it's not gonna feel like you can get a grasp of that, until I get a grasp that I don't feel I can be as creative as I possibly can for that brand, and give them the most amount of either whether it's solutions or, or perspective, or whatever it might be, it's always different. So you never really know what the outcome of that research is going to be. There's some projects that you go through that, and what they've asked you for, is actually not what they need, once you've gone through that. So that's a different conversation to have yet again. So I think this has stemmed a little bit back to how even cultivate came to be. It's that demand of I want what you have. But the only way I did what I did for Birch was because I was so intimate with it. So for me to do what I did for Birch, I have to be the same way with that brands, business. So that's what I invest a lot of time in, and a lot of thinking and 3am, elbow slapping of Glenn in bed, just to come up with those ideas.
But it's until you embrace that. And until the client understands that you have almost as a deeper understanding of what they do have their own business, I think that's where you can really push a lot of creative boundaries. And I think the best results I've had is where a client has gone, oh my god, I had no understanding or I'm just going to trust you to do what you do. And I'll listen with an open mind. And those clients, you can step away from that in the trenches being overwhelmed and listen to that insight. And then the suggestions that you're making to implement those insights in ways that are going to give them more financial security, or grow that audience or expand into different markets, or whatever it might be.
They're the ones that really take on their own trajectory, and you start to see a lot of success, then they can be very, very small things they don't always or a big conclusion, you need a big rebrand, you need to throw money at this. It's not always the case, sometimes it's just dialing the knobs on a few little things just to get everything to work more effectively, I guess, across the board, as opposed to deal with each thing individually.
Mia Fileman 23:24
Do you find that they’re, once you've gone through that process, and you've come up with this really consistent, cohesive visual identity that they stick to it? Or do they get Canva happy and now just say the restaurant this week, we'll just mock something up in Canva, that looks absolutely nothing like what Renee prepared for.
23:47
Look it does happen. And it does make your soul die a little bit on the inside. Because you know that they can be doing it so much better. But at the end of the day, they've got to operate their business in the best way that they know how. And if it's Canva in the moment, it's Canva in the moment. But what I try and do is set things by giving them the scope of potential and how that will look and how that will feel and what that means to their audience. And once you do that, there's very few that go, Oh, thanks so much. We'll just take this and run with it. And then you don't see them. It's very, very few normally, it's like oh my god make that happen. And sometimes it's a little bit in between. And I get that because people are aware of how much money they want to spend on things and all that jazz. I totally get it. But it is. It is interesting that usually within a three to six month period, the ones that do think that they can do it on their own. So quite often they'll say can you just make a few base templates in Canva. So it's done in the style of what they do. Within three to six months though back and going it just doesn't look anything like what you created and like Well, it's the difference between a design and or a designer working on it and pushing it versus someone just putting information into a template and posting it so that awareness, I think is usually a little bit lacking because a lot of people do want to be able to or think that they can control every element of their identity on their own.
But you can you know, the difference as soon as you request a logo from someone, and they've only got it in a JPG format, and that's it, you know, okay, so you just take a few steps back and talk through this is not actually what a logo is, this is what a logo is. And then when you show them what you should be getting that gap, I suppose between their understanding and your understanding is really clear. And that just elevates the trust that they have in you just that little bit further, as well.
But it is a struggle. Yeah, there's a lot of posts, I see Canva posts, I see where I know that the templates have just been bought off Creative Market, or I know that there was in the latest drop of Canva last week, and people have just jumped on because they're beautiful, and they're shiny, and they look really trendy. But there's also been 1000 other people that have done the same thing. So you're diluting your brand immediately just by utilizing some of those tools, which, yeah, it's tricky. But I think there's an awareness growing, that your brand can be so much more than a template on Canva. So people are starting to take a step back and putting the priorities where it needs to be, I think, I hope.
Mia Fileman 26:14
I think the struggle that I find is that, you know, you like lots of things, you know, I love, illustration, and photography. And I like arches and like other shapes. And so I think when we take a look back and look at our favorite brands, and when they have a really cohesive identity, is the fact that they stick to those distinctive brand assets. They don't be like, oh, look, umbrellas. From a tropical to a nautical to a mountain vibe. And it's just, it's just a hodgepodge. Because we like lots of things. I mean, I encountered this with my wedding, where I just, I liked all different elements, and then it's actually bringing it back to that color palette, to that theme, to that style. That actually makes it very, very elevated. And so yeah, but people can get bored of their own brand and bored of seeing the same elements, which is why I'm like, well Campaigns is the answer. Because you're allowed to go and do pretty much whatever you want for a campaign. And it's got to be related in some way like they should be. It shouldn't jar with your, your corporate brand. But it does give you permission to do something quite different for a limited time and then come back home. But yeah, that's probably the biggest thing that I see is that like, Oh, now this brand is using stars. And they're using this and they're using that because, yeah, the latest Canva template had that element, and then they want to incorporate it too.
27:52
You also see it a lot with trends. So people will grasp onto a certain typography style or a certain color palette. And there's other trends that you see. So when someone in an industry really starts to get a lot of attention. And the perception is that doing things really well. And they're super successful, you'll find what their competitors will change their branding to look like them or they'll have this photo styled and shot in the same way that they utilize it. You see it all the time, especially in food industries, anything hospitality wise, like there's probably 16 Restaurant logos at the moment, which she could very, very easily mix up for being each other's because the style and color spectrum are so similar. So I think it's quite a scary thing. And as you said, campaigns are a phenomenal opportunity for people to inject. Let's go rogue into what is a really consistent strategy. And but I think that's a good thing. Like we used to do it all the time. At the restaurant, every event kind of had an identity and a theme. And so when everything was posted about that you can immediately see that it was something other than here's some more food and chefs in the kitchen. Here's something else that's going on. And lots of businesses do this really, really effectively yours does it brilliantly, as does Fi at Peach she does it really well also,
But you touched on something which actually gave me shivers when you were talking about wedding invitations because it brought back lots of nightmare. Brides stories, but it really is the bridezilla manager or the brands custodian that really is the one that makes that trouble happen. So you have a lot of people who this is my business. This is my brand I know best, but they're doing it on what they like or what Mrs. Joe Bloggs told them when she walked into the store yesterday Oh, you need to change this because that color is really hard to read. So they start just making small things and small things become big things very, very quickly, and inconsistency creeps in very very fast. And then you'll see them go to the trends. You'll see them go to the templates because they need to know they need They know they need to get back on track, but they're not they've gone over here and their brand is over here. And they're trying to find that pathway back. And that's, that's an interesting position. That's also one of the main times that I get a little call to say, Hey, I think I need a rebrand. But that's not always the case, it's always the solution. At that time, it's usually a little bit of self awareness is needed bit of a pep talk, getting them back on track, and they're on their way, and they don't need to refresh or rebrand, they just need to stick to the strategy that they developed.
Mia Fileman 30:30
So you work with a lot of SMEs and owner operators several years into their business as do we, which means that rebranding is a frequent topic, both in your world and in ours, we're hearing this a lot in Marketing Circle at the moment with people who are, you know, three to five years in, and they probably didn't invest, as well as they could have. When they first launched their brand. It was sort of like, look, I didn't have a lot of money, I didn't know if this business was going to, you know, survive three to five years. And now we're at a stage where we feel we might need a rebrand. So I'd love to hear from you. Like how do you know when to rebrand?
31:12
So there's a few, I guess, triggers that you can assess, to know if you should rebrand or even just do a refresh. So knowing where you are in the brand lifecycle. So obviously, at a development incubation stage, you should be putting a lot of investment into establishing what it is that you need to fulfill you for three to five years. And a lot of people don't like putting that investment in at that stage for all the reasons that you've just talked about. But once they're underway, they've launched, they're established, they go into a growth and maturity phase. That is the point where you really need to start thinking, brand awareness, relevance, authenticity, connection engagements, because you'll either plateau, or you most likely will plateau, or your decline, you'll start to lose sales. And honestly, that's too late, like you should be making that decision in your growth and maturity stage are considering what to do in that growth maturity stage, purely for the fact which I mentioned before, if you can prevent having to come back from a declining point, then why wouldn't you invest in that moment, and make sure that that's not going to happen, because if you can continue to evolve your brand, that's evolving with your business, and a lot of that comes through actions, and however successful that business is, then yeah, it's genius. Like you just keep going. And there's really no end to what you're doing.
But if you do find yourself in that plateau, declining point, there's a few things that get you there, obviously, the age, and how outdated or stale, your brands may look, because of how long you've been operating, like look at Kodak gone is the day of the camera, and now they've been re branded into something completely different. Diversification, change, or whatever it is that you're offering is no longer relevant is a really good time to look at your brand and how that might happen. Apple in the 90s was a classic example of that change. So new ownership. So new management, maybe it's a relocation is really, it's a good opportunity to assess it. So sometimes it's not needed depending on how strong your brand is. But it is a really, it is a pivotal time. And like I always say to people, if you're changing locations, look at your brand, see if it needs to change with you. Because obviously you're moving because of a better facility or a bigger facility or for whatever other opportunity, it could be going the other way you could be scaling down. And so what you did before is still no longer relevant. So Instagram after it was acquired by meta went through that phase and did it quite well. You've got a new audience. So as the brand ages and evolves, especially anyone who's in the newborn, baby, you've got new customers and new audiences coming in all of the time. So that is a brand that you can evolve very frequently without too much disruption to your audience space. So being consistently aware of, are you still the most relevant person for that group is really important.
The other time that people want to rebrand or refresh is when everything that they've developed looks different, and they want to all get it back into one umbrella. That's a really, well, to be honest, there's no other option other than we need to get our shit together. This is how we're going to do it approach and that's usually a bigger project than just a refresh which a lot of people think that's all they need. And the other time I see lots of rebrands happening is saturation so when you're all your competitors start looking like you people want to change what they're doing, as opposed to strengthen what they're doing. So a lot of people fall into that, oh my god, everybody who does what I do now looks like me, I have to change what I do. Whereas if your brand is strong enough, you just need to step two places ahead of them. It might mean a bit of a refresh, a little bit of a new vibe, but don't jump to the rebrand if you don't need to In that instance, so they’re the main reasons there's probably another 20. I could sit here and talk about, but they're usually the key catalysts that make people want to consider a refresher or rebrand.
Mia Fileman 35:09
Yeah, and we shouldn't be too flippant about this because I, as we've been talking about, I need a refresher. And then I, you created the most epic resource I've ever seen. It's very comprehensive, a rebranding resource, and I absolutely loved it. But then there's a whole section on it, I'm gonna put it in the show notes about what you need to change after you rebrand. And that's it. I’m not going to rebrand.
35:39
I like to freak people out. So, the reason I wanted to change that reason, I created that resource, because it's a really gray area for all those reasons that we've talked about today. So I often feel like rebranding and refreshing is a default for something not working. So unless someone's willing to deal with why something's not working, then it doesn't matter what they do. Yeah, you can throw money at me and I can make stuff happen. But I don't ethically feel good about that, if I don't think you're fixing the core issue. And then the solution may not be a refresh or rebrand, it may be something completely different. So I think taking that scary aspect away, which, yeah, I think I've done because I freak you out with all the things that you should do when you have to do a refresh and a rebrand. And if you're not willing to do that, then it usually gives people a reason to look at other things within their brands that could be elevated or changed or just aligned a little bit better with what they're offering.
So it usually either buys you time, or it blatantly demonstrates to you that I should have probably done this three years ago. So I kind of find people are a bit on defense. And it's really, really in depth and is quite overwhelming. But I don't think I'm sugarcoating it too much, because the reality of a rebrand is epic, is huge. And unless you wholeheartedly going behind it, it's not going to be effective. So why pay all that money, when you're not going to actually utilize what it is that you're creating? Or creating the best way that you can.
Mia Fileman 37:10
Yeah and I think that our mind immediately goes to Okay, I need a new URL, I need new social media handles. And yeah, I'll need to update the copy on my website. And it's like, okay, yeah, so you're going to need to redirect every single page on your website to a new URL, I have two trademarks, where you are going to need to deal with those. Domain Authentication is now a massive thing. So like to send emails, by email marketing, one to many, you need to have your domain authentication locked tight. So this is your SPF, your DKIM, and your DMARC, all of that needs to be reconfigured. If you change your brand, or your name, like the list,
37:54
don't forget the legal the financial, the employee, the HR, IT assets, the physical assets to strategy, your communication, your customer experiencing, how you measure, how you monitor, it's just, it's endless, what you have to do.
Mia Fileman 38:09
it's a pretty good argument for like investing in it in the first place, right?
38:15
Totally 100%. This is what we should have done way back. But look, I think it's inevitable things change. Businesses change, like I am a classic example, like I have evolved through this as my fifth business. And I've been probably the most mindful in starting this one than I have in any of the others. I think, obviously, I'm much wiser and older. But also I kind of feel like you can be so much more authentic and so much more transparent in how you operate a business. And I think by look at this beautiful shiny brand, look at this beautiful shiny photography, I think masks a lot of the actual goings on and doings on in the business, which is not a bad thing. And I think some businesses have to operate that way. But it doesn't really feel right for me. So because of that mindfulness, I'm creating a business that I am supremely proud of, I have a beautiful community that I connect with. I have clients that I'm really passionate about. And once I get them, I don't seem to be able to lose them. So I've forged some of the most beautiful relationships with those clients ever. And I think that it's just finding what fits right for you in the moment that you are.
So if I wanted to build Cultivate into an agency, I will be tackling my brand, very, very differently to what I am right now. But I have no grand aspirations to create a 20 person agency and do everything for everybody. That's not who I am. That's not where the direction of my business is going to go. So by being truer to what actually I wanted to deliver, it allows me to be more authentic and therefore create better connections within my brand. I don't have very many followings. But I'm all day every day in meetings, having conversations, sending proposals, doing work because who I connect with is of a much deeper level than what it has been in anything else I've ever done before. So that's right for me, if I was a retail outlet, that would be different. Again, if I was an online business, that would be different again, but I think it's just finding that right, I guess, bubble of goodness that works for you. And finding a way that you can do it achievabley and not I find people get really overwhelmed by all things. Like I think their brand is such a tiny element, because they think they have to be doing the social and marketing and the PR and, and the brand has kind of gets put down the ladder. Whereas if you had a strong brand, all those things actually become 100% easier to do. So it's an interesting thing. I think it's a really phase stage approach. And I think there's some businesses who would never ever contemplate a rebrand in their entire life. And I know others that have gone through it three or four times in as many years. So it's a very individual thing. And I think that's the thing, you just have to know that you can't copy a competitor, you can't do what Joe down the road did or what this person online did, because it's not actually relevant for you, you have to work out what works for you.
Mia Fileman 41:09
Yeah, I think that there's a real lack of introspection and honesty with ourselves in terms of the kind of business that we want to run, like, what you just described there, where you don't have aspirations to be an agency director, and, you know, to scale this business, and you like having those deep relationships and go the long haul with a client, that actually is not what a lot of people want. That's not what they want 100% They want to be very low touch with their customers, they want to have these big online courses where, you know, 2000 people enroll, and they don't actually want to get on the phone with their clients every day and you know, treat their clients brands like their own, they want this sort of lifestyle business, which each to their own. But be honest with yourself about what it is that you want. Because that requires not just a different branding or brand strategy, but a completely different marketing strategy. Like, you know, if you don't want to be marketing 90% of your time, then online business is not for you.
42:13
Oh, 100%. And I think the thing that I, certainly since I've joined Marketing Circle, I've become so aware of is that when I see a campaign now I sit there like I'm a complete judgey I'm awful, I sit there and go, Why would they do that? Why are they saying that? This is not giving me a true representation of this, this actually means that they're going to do that. So it's interesting that the exposure that I've had even just that reinvigorated just a few weeks, it's really interesting to see that that inauthenticity shines through with those businesses that don't want to be honest or transparent with themselves. So I kind of feel that this is almost I don't want to say untapped power, because campaigns have always had a beautiful, empowering aspect to them. But I kind of feel that there's this massive potential, especially for small businesses, to use campaigns to put themselves out in ways that really sets them apart from competitors. And I think campaigns for a lot of small businesses is a really scary concept.
Because we just think ad campaign, it's this huge filmed, massive production type thing. And it doesn't need to be some of the ones that certainly the ones I've activated since working with you are very low key, like it involves me talking one on one with people, my strategy is to reach out to people on a one on one basis, and have that conversation. And those results are being as fantastic but it is very individualistic. But I think the power, as you said with marketing. I think it's a tricky thing, I think, on brand and marketing go hand in hand. There's no lie, there's no, you can't argue against that. And I think these inauthentic making million dollars in 12 minutes, kind of, I guess, campaigns and offers that you see all the time versus the ones that are having deeper conversations with less people. It's a really interesting, I don't know, I find it really as a purveyor, a really conflicting time, because you can look at the visuals, like from a brand perspective and go they've nailed it. They've now in the big scheme, and they've nailed it in the small game. But what makes one better than the other. And I think that comes back to the people that you're trying to connect with and the power that they have, and how they're giving you what you need. And you having the clarity around what it is that you want.
So it's a kind of a really, I don't know that sounds very holistic, hoo har but maybe it was a full moon last night or something having an effect on me. But I kind of feel like this is more to it than just who you are. I want a brochure to put into the tourist office. I want to have a better connection with my clients like I will 1,000% go towards someone who says I want a better connection to my clients. And I'll probably tell the person who just wants a brochure design. I'm sorry, but here's five designers that I know will do this job perfectly for you. I'm not your person. So there's kind of a power for me in being able to navigate who I want to work with that way. But the thought of doing for 2000 people who I do not know, like, that makes me feel sick. It's just, it's a different perspective. I think I have clients who do that, and I've worked with them. And it's just a different realm of business. And I think that's the joy of what I get to do is I get to dip my toe into all these different industries with all these different people, and just play and have a huge amount of fun.
Mia Fileman 45:24
Yeah, I vividly remember it was a few months ago, I was approached by a business owner, who wanted me to help her clearly define her point of difference for her brand. And so my process for that is a Strategy Workshop. Okay, so we're going to, we're going to do a workshop, please invite your team, have a bunch of questions. And we get to the core of like how your brand is different from the competitive set. And it was clear that they didn't have that kind of relationship with their customers or within their internal team, because I got five different responses from five different people. And also, there was no consensus amongst the 2000 customers about what this brand was, oh, no, but science, I said it was this and so on. So I said it was that. Anyway, it was 90 minutes, and we were not getting anything. And yeah, we get to the end of the workshop. And this business owner was like, Well, me, I was expecting a concise point of differentiation statement from you. And I've got to use what I've got, like, I mean, I can go away and write it for you. If that's what you want me to do, that's fine. I can, I can choose beautiful words, and I can write this for you. But it's going to be completely inauthentic. Because where we pull this from is not our butts.
Or ChatGPT
I mean, I've said this before, I'll say it again. But marketing is just really good listening, you've got to, it comes from somewhere. And that comes from the customers, it comes from the day to day interactions and the perceptions that exist. Like right now, if you were to go out onto the internet and say, What does Campaign Del Mar, there's going to be some words that people are going to use, I want to know what those words are. Those are the words that I would then give to my designer and say these are the words. So yeah, we don't we don't do this in a vacuum. We don't we don't do this by going, oh, I want to be like that brand, or I aspire to have that brand. It's what your brand is. It is a living, breathing, you know, life form. So what is it? We need to articulate that. Anyway? I could rant about that forever.
47:38
I know. But it's true. People often don't know what it is that they do or who they do it for. And they might have a thought. But the reality is usually quite different. Like what you've explained, like there's usually that perception of like those 2000 people had a different perception to what she did. And then it wasn't cohesive enough for you to utilize in one statement. It's really interesting. I think it's really, I don't know, it's fascinating. Like you, I could sit here and talk for days.
Mia Fileman 48:03
It just really pissed me off actually. Because if the solution was to essentially hire a copywriter to write it. That's what seemed like the solution. And I don't know why I was the copywriter that was called in question. Like, it was basically like, can you write this statement for us Mia? And it's like, no, that's not how this works. Unfortunately, like, you've got to do the work.
Exactly.
The work is going and doing those interviews. You call it stakeholder engagement in your resource. I freaking love that. And it was like interviews with every single person that works at the organization, and getting on the phone to customers. And, and like thumbing through all the audience research and all the market research surveys. And sometimes I mean, some of these brands have been around for 12 years, you know, and they send a survey every couple of months going through all of those going through all the customer service emails and seeing what people are complaining about going through all the Google reviews or the Facebook reviews or the TripAdvisor reviews and pulling it together into something that, like, has common threads. That's the beginning of nailing your brand. It's not a mood board on Pinterest.
Renee Wallace 49:19
No 100%. But I also feel that is the most devalued aspect of building a brand. People don't invest in that stage. They don't ask the questions. They don't probe the customers, they don't look at the reviews. Or if they do, they only look at the ones that they want to look at. It's a really overlooked aspect, which is why brands after two or three years have to go through full re brands because it just was never a considered element at the beginning. And to be honest, sadly, there's a lot of designers that do it. They just are there to create a visual and that's all that they do and they very rarely will ask a question and if you're working with an agency and dealing with an account director, you are not going to get the questions asked, you have to tick a few boxes on a form. And that's it, poof, there's your magic logo, but how relevant that logo is to what you do and how you do it. And then the potential you have with that identity for marketing campaigns or for social media strategies, or for whatever it is that you need is so limited, that people just don't see or reach the potential that they reach. Don’t get me wrong, there's lots of very probably financially successful businesses just doing what they do every day with not even considering what the invoice looks like, or how a customer reached out to them. Couldn't give two hoots about any of that process. But are those the ones that I aligned with know, the ones that I aligned with are the ones that connect with me or that I feel a connection to or some sort of reason, or it's goes beyond for me what they say and what they look like, it has to be another third element as well to get me in. And they're the ones that I reach out to, they're the ones that I will buy from or seek out or support or buy a ticket to, or whatever it is. They're the ones that I do that. And we've seen that in our businesses, especially at Birch like, because to the point where I didn't even have to advertise anything, I'll just put a link in an email. And then an hour later that whatever that thing was, it was booked out because we had built such a strong connection with our audience. And I think people don't see that because people don't talk about it. They don't talk about what it is to have a really connected audience and what that means for them, without this elevated, non achievable stupid goals of making 1000s Or getting 4 million followers or whatever the stupid thing is. But it's interesting. I think there's a huge power. I think once you've got a connected audience, I think the scope for impact and scope community is so huge, that it really at the end of the day, it doesn't actually matter what you look like, but what you do, you've got that community around you and they will support you and elevate you and and do whatever they can to make sure you that you can do what you do.
Mia Fileman 51:57
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it was really interesting you said that, because I have worked with these accountants for years. They're my family's accountants. And I have the best accountant and he's incredible. Shout out to Sam. He's a young CPA accountant. You know, he reads my newsletters. He connects with me on LinkedIn. He's awesome. And like, he's the reason why I'm still with this quite fuddy duddy accounting firm to be quite honest. And their branding and their marketing has just been horrific for like years. And people always say, Oh, do you do you have any accountants that you recommend? I've always been embarrassed to recommend them because it's like, on face value, they just look like they're dos era. And yeah, and like they've recently gone through a rebrand. And I feel so much more pride to be a customer. It sounds ridiculous saying that out loud. But I do I'm just like this now is, I get it like, and now I feel like no, I wasn't crazy for sticking with this accounting firm. They are great, very good at what they do. And now their visual brand reflects that. You know, that's what we're talking about?
53:08
Did they ask you? Were you involved as a customer giving feedback? No, no, that's interesting. Why? Well, like I said, safe as a long standing client who's going through a rebrand, I would have requested to have even if they just gave me 10 of their longest clients that have been with them longest. And so I just want to be able to ask them three questions, and have that conversation with those three clients. And in all those 10 clients, those three questions and just use that as a, I don't know, feel the pot of information and insights a little bit. But it is interesting, though. They've obviously done some work for you to have that reaction, which is genius. It's brilliant.
Mia Fileman 53:47
Yeah, I was actually like, Sorry, I misunderstood your question. I thought you were saying Did they reach out to me in my capacity as a marketer.
53:54
No, sorry, as a client.
Mia Fileman 53:58
And I'm so glad that they didn’t right. Because I don't know. I feel like sometimes we muddy these relationships way too much. Do you know what I mean? It's like no, like, I'm a client. I'm your client and you bring my client now that's just no no, it's not gonna work like I quite liked that they went and did that independently? I'm sure they did. Renee ask for my feedback at some point I do ignore a lot of the emails that I get.
54:25
mental note: Don’t ask Mia for feedback. Got it good.
Sorry, Sam!
54:33
Well, I can go all the time around dinner tables, I get all these people going “my social media isn't working. What do you think I should do?” I'm like, I've only drank one bottle. Don't ask me these questions.
Mia Fileman 54:41
Oh, I'm the opposite. I just give unsolicited advice
54:44
After two bottles so you can't shut me up.
Mia Fileman 54:48
Yeah, so we've mentioned campaigns a few times in this chat. And campaign is not a pineapple word as Mark Pollard mentioned in a recent episode, pineapple words you know, You know what it is, it means a campaign means different things to different people. So I'd love to know what it means to you.
55:07
I really liked your description. Well, I think Emily had to remind you what your description was when I first met you, which I thought was really cute. But for me, a campaign has always suspended really quite simply just a focus activity or a series of activities to achieve a desired outcome. Like that's it, whether it's sell tickets, book the place, sign up to the EDM, get the offer, whatever it is. Because I think I've been predominantly involved with event campaigns. I feel like I've kind of had my campaign blinkers on for the last six, seven years. And even before that, because I did a lot of works with some event organizations. And I think you forget the scope that a campaign can have and the reach a campaign can achieve for you. And I've mentioned this before about the potential I feel that has for small businesses, especially for those small businesses, it feels like they're not staying that step ahead of social media, or email marketing, or whatever it is that they feel like they're not doing, I think campaigns can be a really beautiful and symbiotic answer for especially smaller businesses. But I also don't see medium businesses utilizing campaigns at all, really. There's very, very few. Big guys 100% All the time. And we sit here and judge ourselves against the standards that they create. But I don't know, I just, whether it's you and your vibe and marketing circle, and all those beautiful people that are part of that community have just reinvigorated my love. But I kind of, I don't know, I've just my creative brains switched into a few gears and starting to see I even proposed a proposal sent earlier this week that these guys should stop social media because it isn't working for them, they need to focus on they've got quite a huge email database, or quite a huge subscriber list, which they service with one email every eight weeks, and no campaigns at all. And I'm like, You need to change tact and do this, even just do it for six months and see how it goes. Because what you're doing over here is not working at all. And it'll be really interesting, have that conversation with them next week to see what they think. But I love the idea of I don't know, some people probably just think it's another thing I need to get my head around. But I really feel it's got the power to have really short spurts of love because I think the consistency of having to constantly deliver on across social media and other channels is really a huge pressure that a lot of people feel. Whereas the campaign is, I just have to do this for six weeks. So smashes out of the park for six weeks, and then I can have a three week rest. Like I think that mentality is going to be a really huge game changer for a lot of businesses if they can get their head around it.
Mia Fileman 57:45
Yeah, sort of shot myself in the foot calling them campaigns, but that's what they called, I'm not gonna go rewrite the textbook.
57:52
We'll do that next week.
Mia Fileman 57:53
Well as problems with me just suddenly calling them something else, you know. But in effect, a campaign is a project, just a marketing project. Here in Calgary, where I'm living at the moment, this incredible woman has gone and built this incredible space. And in the space, she has filled it with pop beauty professionals. So there's a hair salon, there's a nail salon, there’s waxing, theres whatever. And they did an open day. And so I'm like, Oh, perfect opportunity for a campaign. And unfortunately, what it was, was three posts. That's it. And each post was like a Great Gatsby inspired kind of invitation, which is come to the open day, come to the open day, or come to the open day. Like that was it. That was the message, come to the open day. And like standing back watching this and like what's happening in the open day? Like, what are we doing that? Like? Is there catering? Is there an opportunity? Is there a talk from anyone? Is there? Do we go around to each of them? I honestly had more questions and answers. Oh, gotcha, missed opportunity for me. Because I mean, right now, I could sit here for the next 30 seconds and give you 30 days worth of content in how to turn an open day into a campaign without costing $1. You know, so a post from each of the people that have rented out the space talking about what they're going to be doing at the open day and how their business is different. And just like so many different ways to take this from good to great.
Renee Wallace 59:33
100% And even just a little quote from each of those people on a static post, but even just be alluring enough for people to go, even if it's a community thing like these people in downtown have an area so these people who own these businesses are known by other people and to use those faces to go Oh, my mate is opening this, and look, oh, they've got this and this person in here as well. It's just Yeah, such a missed opportunity. And I think you I think the way you feel about that is the same way I feel about people using Canva.
Mia Fileman 1:00:04
Yeah, like why not run a competition to win a service from each of these businesses? If you come along to the Open Day
Just a gift on arrival like, yeah,
it's really, I didn't end up going because like, I don't know what it was like, I honestly don't think we assume that. But it's an open date. Yeah, sure. But what does that mean? What does that mean? Yeah, I don't know what it is. I need you to spell it out for me.
1:00:29
Yeah, I think people forget that. Sometimes audiences want more information. There's a lot of assumed knowledge. Well, I'm just gonna open this, here's a dinner, And here's a ticket. Okay, well, how many courses and is wine included? And what time does it start? And where is it located? And who is collaborating? Like people just don't see the value in in sharing that kind of information? It's so bizarre. I don't get it.
Mia Fileman 1:00:51
Yeah, I think we're just sort of we failed to communicate, or obviously, we failed to properly communicate, but we just there's, there's too much assumed knowledge. You know, she's just that one day. So of course, I'm going to have champagne on arrival. Well, a lot of people don't do that. If I go to the open day for F45. They're not serving champagne on arrival. There's a talk there from the global F 45 Trainer who's coming to do a talk on sport and stress injuries, like that's what needs to be put in their social media posts and their campaign anyway.
1:01:26
Do you think though, it's because people don't consider campaigns as a marketing channel?
Mia Fileman 1:01:32
Yeah, that's right. They're just like, you know, they're, they're like, oh, I need to go to social media. And I need to promote the open day. And so I'm going to do two or three posts, or four or five posts to promote the open day. And then that's, that's how they think of it. It's like it's a promotional post about the open day as opposed to going, okay, as your definition Renee was like, Alright, what's my objective? I need to try to get as many people as possible to the open day who represent my ideal audience, how am I best going to do that? Well, I need to make sure that first we attract the right people, and that we make it compelling for them to come to the open day, and we give them all the information that they need to come to that open day. So that then this is a successful outcome.
So when you reframe it from that perspective, which is I'm not just doing two or three posts, promoting my Open Day, I actually have this bigger goal, that my Open Day is going to set me up for success. Because from the open day, hopefully, people are going to then book into those various services. And that's what that's my growth strategy for my business. It completely changes then you go shit, three posts, that ain't gonna get the job done. Right. And that's not how I'm going to fill my funnel for the next 12 months, because like, an open day is a pretty expensive undertaking. And so then you automatically change and you're like, oh, right, well, if I need to get, you know, 100 people through the door at this open day, because that's what I'm relying on to fill my my books for my hair salon, then that's a whole different posting schedule than just three posts to hear about come along.
1:03:17
Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? I would love to know, the thought process behind them thinking that was enough.
Mia Fileman 1:03:22
Yeah, I think, honestly, what I hear is that we posted three times about the open day now people are hearing about it.
Yeah, go for PG, send that extra email in a week.
Yeah, I'd like I saw the three posts, but I still can't tell you what it is, I actually would have liked a lot more information. So it's not about quantity. It's like you can post about something for 30 days straight, like I have proven many times or not, and not bore people into submission, as long as you every post is different. You know, I mean, I could do 900 posts on campaigns. My difficulty is picking which of the top 30 to go into my campaign, and which 13 emails I'm going to send through my campaign. It's not writing 13 emails about campaigns is infinite information. Yeah, that I can get across. Yeah, that's true. It's when you regurgitate. And you're just like, come to the opener come to the opener come to the open day capture as opposed to right this is what we're going to do. This is who it's for, this is who it's by, this is what you're going to get, this is what happens after that this is you know, who's going to be there. This is like three reasons why you should come along tomorrow. This is how long it's going to be. All of that gets fleshed out and then you're just like, oh, yeah, that was all required. All of those posts. All of those emails weren't necessary in order to keep us up.
1:04:57
People get hooked in they don't realize that they do, but the more snippets you leave, I guess it's that whole candy trail like you keep just dropping a little nugget and people will just take it and then they will look forward to the next one. And then the momentum builds. Yeah, it's pretty. It's a simple philosophy, but a lot of people just don't utilize it.
Mia Fileman 1:05:18
Totally, All right. Last last thing I'd want to cover off with you is, you mentioned that you have trouble switching off your creative brain. Have you ever had trouble switching it on? And so like, what does that look like for you? If you? Have you ever been in that situation where you just can't come up with the ideas? And And will you go to for tapping that?
1:05:42
100%. It's like, writer's block you. There's so many, I think the problem I have is that quite often, I overwhelm myself with too many ideas or too many possibilities. And then you get caught into this hamster wheel of trying to identify what is the most effective for this particular client, not only in this moment, but where they want to go, and I probably put more pressure on myself than is warranted. But you do, it's coming back to that I feel like for a moment in time, I'm given this privilege to have this asset in access and insight into a brand. And they've trusted me to help them put their next best foot forward. So I kind of put that pressure on me a lot. And I think that's where I get caught up in those things. And of course, you as a creative minded person, you get stuck. But quite often for me, it's just this change of scenery just a bit like standing on your heading yoga, though I don't do that either. I'd probably break my neck, but I will go food shopping is a good thing. For me, I love going finding the weirdest vegetables, I can find it Harris farm and then challenging myself with creating something that's actually edible with that weird thing. Or, like I've said, going on huge drives, usually, it allows solutions to come through not usually when I'm stressed about usually something that I've put off to the side, but they do come through. And I also love having conversations with people about things that I know nothing about. So if you catch up with friends, and someone's just got a new hobby, or have just done something new at work, or whatever, I've got no idea what they do and how they do it. But they can sit there and talk to me about it. And I'm very invested. So I guess it's very similar to you in that you turn that, that thinking about it part of your brain offing, and distract yourself with something else that's shiny, and then that gives space for solutions to come through. I've never not found a solution, which probably sounds a little bit arrogant. But I think it's just the it's just comes back to that research, the answer is always right in front of your face, you just have to be able to, to decipher what, what it is and what combination of information that you have will give you the solution that you need.
Mia Fileman 1:07:56
Yeah, I've had times where I haven't found the solution. And then I've had to go back and say, Listen, I just don't have enough data to work with. Yeah, you know, there's just not enough here for me to build something I would be guessing at this point. And then I'm coming up with something that I've seen somewhere else, or I've heard somewhere else that would work your brand. But it's I actually I need to push it back and just say listen, until you go and do five in depth customer interviews. I don't have enough to work with here, or you haven't given me enough time. And now there's just too much pressure to try to pull a rabbit out of a hat. And yeah, I think
1:08:34
the time things are killer, like you mentioned, I think if you are under a super amount of pressure, you don't tend to every possibility flow. So giving a designer time to create is a really powerful thing. And I know not everyone doesn't always have that luxury. But I also think that the more powerful solutions come from letting those people's luck you've paid them to think creatively for you because you can't do it for yourself. So let them do what they do and see what comes out and hopefully it's a beautiful solution. Everybody sings in the rain. Well, it
Mia Fileman 1:09:10
has been an absolute pleasure when we thank you so much for sharing the microphone with me today. Thank you. I will put all the details for cultivate in the show notes. And where's the best place for someone to connect with you?
1:09:23
Either to me it's called vote assembly or online. You can check me out or do a little quiet stalking. Cultivate assembly.com
Mia Fileman 1:09:32
Amazing. Thank you once again. Thanks, Mia. Thank you, you listened right up until the end. So why not hit that subscribe button and keep the good marketing rolling. Podcast reviews and lead warm hugs. And they're also the best way to support a small business. You can connect with me me or fireman on Instagram or LinkedIn and feel free to send me a message. I'm super friendly.
