Mia Fileman 0:05
This is Got Marketing? – a podcast with ideas, strategies, and tactics to help small businesses create smarter marketing. I’m Mia Fileman, a professional marketer, and the founder of Campaign del Mar. In this show, I chat with creatives and strategists about the different aspects of marketing, but without the fluff. Let’s dive in!
Hello, folks! Welcome back to the Got Marketing? Podcast!
Today, I am joined by Niharikaa Sodhi. She is a 21X Medium Top Writer and the owner of Summit 21. She has helped 70+ writers across 30+ countries. She is really passionate about side hustling and holistic living.
I came across Niharikaa on Medium where we are both writers. It was this particular article that she wrote which was “Six Truths Nobody Tells You About Selling a Course.” I found myself nodding furiously as I was reading this article, thinking, “This woman is absolutely speaking my language.”
I reached out to her on LinkedIn and asked her to come on and talk to me about the myths and the misconceptions around marketing an online course.
Welcome to the show, Niharikaa!
Niharikaa Sodhi 1:28
Thank you for having me! Thank you so much!
Mia Fileman 1:31
I would love to start by hearing your brand story. I want to hear the juicy bits, but not just the highlights reel.
Niharikaa Sodhi 1:39
To be honest, I didn’t know it was called a brand story or personal branding. These are terms I came across only when I joined Twitter. I was just putting out stuff I liked – without following any rules.
I don’t believe that everybody needs to have a niche – at least when they’re starting out – because it’s important to start and figure it out later. That’s all I was doing across platforms. I was writing on LinkedIn. I was putting out my thoughts.
I have been writing online for eight years. A lot of people online think – on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Medium – that there’s a sudden success, but I have been writing since I was eight years old. I have been writing online on platforms for eight years. It’s actually a lot of years of work, and you know how those small efforts compound and bring you results. I think that’s all that there is.
My brand story has just been talking about things that are going on life. There was one time that I spoke a lot about losing weight and being healthy, but that was because I was on a journey to battle obesity and drop 55 pounds. I would read and research, and I wanted to help somebody else there. That goes the same for side hustling.
I was in a 9 to 5 pursuing a side hustle. I wanted somebody else – like, my 3-month-old self or my 1-year-old self – to get some help that I didn’t. That’s helped people. I guess that is my brand story for now.
Mia Fileman 3:09
I love that because it comes from a place of authenticity. You are not setting out to market or to sell to someone. You are out there to share your gifts with the community.
I am a professional marketer. We talk about strategies all the time. You need a social media strategy. You need a digital strategy. You need a marketing strategy. I call BS on all of that.
As a brand, you need one strategy, and one strategy only – that is to be of value to your audience. You are approaching this – almost intuitively – from a place of “how can I deliver value to my audience?” is genius! It’s actually marketing genius!
Niharikaa Sodhi 3:54
Thank you.
Also, Summit 21, I never had a dream to create a course because things were already going well for me. I never wanted a course. Now we can call it a business which does sell out. It is a product of one tweet.
I put out a tweet saying, “Do you think you would need my help in being consistent and knowing what works on what platform?” I put out a few bullet points. “Comment and I will DM you something.”
I actually invited over 70 people to be a part of the first round which was free of cost. Then I shortlisted 40 people from different countries. I still thought, “I’m teaching them really simple things. I don’t think it will make a world of difference to them,” but it did.
Sometimes, we undervalue ourselves. What comes easy to me may be difficult for somebody else and they can learn. Just like you; what comes easy for you can be really difficult for me because I don’t know anything about sales or marketing. My only knowledge comes from Medium articles.
Like you said, I’m very intuitive. I follow my intuition. The entire course now has come from one tweet with the intention to deliver and be of value.
If I had not put out that tweet, I would not have known that that’s a problem that I can help with, and it actually works. It’s effective. Having the right intention really matters.
Mia Fileman 5:19
It so does. You can’t fake authenticity. You just can’t, so having that approach is exactly what business owners should do.
Tell me a little bit about Summit 21. What is the program?
Niharikaa Sodhi 5:35
The program is for writers to be consistent. It’s not platform specific.
How it differs from all the other courses out there about being consistent is because it’s sustainable. I’m not going to make people feel bad because they didn’t turn up five days out of 21 days. I tell them, “If you want to take an off, you should – without feeling guilty – because the best ideas come from living.”
Go out on dates. Go travel. Go eat some good food. Hang out with friends. Spend time with family. You should not feel guilty for it. This is part of the process as well. When they start feeling that way, they will be more comfortable with themselves as writers.
Online, everybody is talking about publishing every day, working for 12 hours, hustle, hustle, hustle! I don’t believe in that hustle. It does not have to be a hustle. It needs to be fun.
It shows writers how they can be better writers, how they can be consistent across platforms with an easy strategy, how they can use Twitter to be better copywriters, and how they can generate more ideas. It’s a very wholistic well-rounded writing course for somebody who wants to be a digital writer, increase their personal brand, and build an audience. It’s also related.
Mia Fileman 6:47
Totally!
You’ve seen a lot of success with this program now. As you said, it sells out every time that you offer it. I have a question which is do you think there is such a thing as passive income? As you said in the intro, you’ve been writing for eight years – building this audience for eight years. Is that a contradiction in terms?
Niharikaa Sodhi 7:10
I only started taking writing seriously in 2020 when the pandemic hit. A lot of our lives changed that time, right? I had so much time at home. My commute was out. Going to the gym was out. That’s how I started writing online. That’s when I monetized it. Before that, I wrote for fun. The intention was to have fun and give value.
I had a really famous Instagram page – not 100K, but 11K followers – all authentic, all organic. It wasn’t about the numbers as much as the DMs I got saying, “You know, because of your tips, I lost weight!” or “My skin is better!” and things like that.
But I deleted all of that because Instagram was a lot of vanity for me. I know I can give more value if there’s no vanity involved. I don’t want to wake up feeling insecure, work so much on filters and things like that.
To circle back to your question, yes, passive income is a thing, but you need to do a lot of active work to get passive income. For instance, I do have substantial passive income coming from affiliate marketing, but I have never tried hard to be an affiliate. If I’ve done three courses, and I liked them, and they’ve worked for me, and I have proof of results, then I know that somebody else is going to benefit from it.
I think intention makes all the difference because nobody earns money by wanting to earn money or by wanting money. It just doesn’t happen.
Yes, it is a thing, but it requires a lot of active work. YouTube is passive income. Medium articles are passive income. Some articles published months ago make money. It definitely is a thing, but I don’t think it should be a goal. The goal should be to have fun. All good things will come from there.
Mia Fileman 8:51
I guess my perspective is like, “Sure, I go to bed, I wake up in the morning, and I’ve made a sale, but that wasn’t passive!” I broke my back for three years, building this program, teaching this program, so that previous students now tell new students to do it, marketing this program. Before that, the 21 years as a professional marketer learning the knowledge that I now teach in the program. Technically, I made some money in my sleep, but not really.
Niharikaa Sodhi 9:27
Yes, but what if you spend two hours to put out a guide? I spent half an hour to put out a checklist, but it hasn’t even been five months and it’s still in nearly 2,000 inboxes. Some people have chosen to pay for it when it’s for free. That is passive income.
But I get where you’re coming from because the thing is people like us put so much of ourselves into creating our products. They’re like our little babies.
Mia Fileman 9:54
Yes.
Niharikaa Sodhi 9:54
That’s why it’s so easy to get a little defensive. The first thing even I said was, “It hasn’t been after writing online for many years because it just happens.”
Mia Fileman 10:04
For the listeners out there, do you think that everyone should run out and create an online course? They are the hottest latest thing. Everyone is telling them that they should be launching an online course, no longer exchanging time for money, converting their service-based businesses into an online course. Do you think that is the solution to all the problems that exist with a service-based business?
Niharikaa Sodhi 10:30
Absolutely not.
Like I said, if you want to do it to make money, it’s probably not going to happen because your motivation will be really different. Also, you can – everybody can make a course. Everybody does have something to teach. The question is are people going to buy it, and why would they buy it from you?
If people are buying Summit 21, they have seen me for two years to have LinkedIn posts with millions of views or do well on Medium and do well on Twitter. I only joined Twitter about eight months ago. There are over 5,000 followers – without following any strategies, hacks, algorithms. It’s just by being me.
Where is your credibility? Why should somebody learn from you?
I would also say, if you want an online course, do online courses. A lot of people want to create products they’ve never been a part of. Invest a few hundred dollars to see the pattern. Otherwise, it’s like reinventing a wheel which is already there.
It definitely isn’t an answer to passive income and things like that. It doesn’t work that way. If things were that easy, all of us would be millionaires.
Mia Fileman 11:40
I whole-heartedly agree with that.
I think there is so much to creating and marketing an online course that people do not see that they think it’s like building a website. “I build a website and all the traffic comes!”
Building a website is the easy part! Getting people to visit the website is the real work. It’s the exact same thing with the online course because now everyone has an online course.
Everyone is an online course creator. We’re seeing that across the entrepreneurial ecosystem. We’re seeing it across the creator ecosystem. We’re seeing creators like you find a lot of success in their craft and then want to monetize that by teaching other people how to create.
But then, we’re also seeing traditional learning institutions – like universities – offer short-term courses. My particular marketing course competes with all of those people, including traditional universities who are now offering a six-week course in digital marketing. It is a cluttered and saturated environment.
Exactly as you said. “Why you?”
Niharikaa Sodhi 12:53
Exactly.
If I can also add two things, first, you don’t need 100,000 followers. You just need ten people to believe in you. That’s it. You don’t need to compare yourself. “I have Summit 21, but then there is a $4,000 writing course and there’s a $500 writing course. These are the two courses I like, but then there are hundreds of other courses that exist.” I’m not in competition with them. I’m not in competition with anybody because I didn’t quit my job to get myself stuck in a hamster wheel.
Secondly, Summit 21 can be very easy passive income for me. I can record videos, spend four hours, sell it, and make money in my sleep, but the fulfilling bit of having a course is interacting with people, knowing people, having conversations, learning their pain points and actually having them overcome it.
For instance, somebody else can learn from Summit 21 from videos, but a mum telling me, “Hey! I’m doing my 9 to 5. I’m also side hustling. I also have a year-old baby. What do you suggest I do? Should I do the tweets? Should I focus on longform? How often should I go about it?” that’s an entirely different conversation. That’s inspiring for me – to know that a mum out there is doing these kinds of things and her life is 100 times busier than mine. It’s so busy!
Don’t direct energies for passive income. I keep a three-month gap between my courses. That’s three months of not earning money from the course and I’m fine with that because I’m working behind the scenes to make it better. I had 30 people then 25 people. I lowered it down to 15 because I wanted to focus so much more on people and learning their problems.
Mia Fileman 14:38
So many course creators have been told or are not willing to do that. They’re not willing to offer the support, the accountability, or the handholding, but as we know, I can go and download checklists and templates from the internet. That’s not hard to find if you know where to look.
The real transformation happens when someone supports you, when someone gives you that tailored advice like you did for that mum where you’re like, “In your particular circumstances, this is what I would recommend. This is what I would prioritise.”
I guess it comes back to doing things for the right reasons.
Niharikaa Sodhi 15:12
Exactly!
Mia Fileman 15:14
Yes, and living that life of purpose. If you infuse purpose and value into everything you do, it will repay dividends, for sure.
Niharikaa Sodhi 15:26
Right.
Also, I focus on delivering value and service because I know that, if I conduct ten Summit 21s, I speak to 200 people, I’m going to know the pain points of writers more and more. I’m not in a rush to scale, to grow big. I’m turning 26. I think there is a lot of time ahead in front of me. It’s fine. I want to enjoy things.
The learning period will never come again if I make it into an online thing. I want to be there. I want to learn from people and know their pain points because then there are hundreds of other people who have the same pain points as them.
Maybe mothers have similar pain points. Maybe working dads have similar pain points. Stay-at-home dads have different pain points. Things like that. It can resonate with so many people. I can solve for more issues when I learn to work on the ground level and learn about what the issues are.
Mia Fileman 16:20
I’m a mum of two. I’ve recently turned 40. I’ve said this that we as a generation of millennials can learn so much from your generation of Gen Z. Your priorities are right. We work ourselves into the ground and burn out like you’ve never seen before.
Your generation has come along and you’re like, “No, I’m not doing that. I’m not doing that because our parents told us we had to have children and we had to have these corporate jobs and we had to buy a house and we had to do the white picket fence.” It’s so inspiring! I can’t tell you how inspiring it is to hear, “No, I’m working to live – not living to work!” It’s so good.
The other thing that I don’t think we’re talking about enough is that business owners are so afraid now to talk to customers – to literally pick up the phone or talk to them.
I get it. We’ve been through a horrific couple of years where we’ve been locked down and the only contact that we really had with a lot of the outside world is online, and it is digital, and it is social, so that first in-person interaction can be a little bit awkward, but as a marketer, there is nothing more valuable than talking to a customer.
Exactly as you said – hearing directly from the horse’s mouth what they’re struggling with because then that helps you to optimise your content and solve new problems for them. It’s like eating your vegetables. Talking to your customers in marketing is eating your vegetables.
Niharikaa Sodhi 18:02
Yes, absolutely. And why not?
Especially for me, nobody who I’m working with is even in my city. 95 percent of them are not even in the country. It’s very easy to talk to somebody. You’d be surprised how willing people are to open up to them. More and more people are willing to be vulnerable after the pandemic hit.
I don’t know what happened. Was it more self-awareness from spending more time at home and things like that? I’m seeing more people open up about abuse. That’s a big deal. Who does that? Not to people but online with an intent that somebody else feels like they’re not alone, right?
Honestly, go and talk. See, I’m very lazy. Most of my strategies are to get work done ASAP, to get the solutions to my problems as soon as possible, so I will just ask.
Somebody told me, “I’m 20 years older than you. I’ve worked in education curriculum for really, really long. I think this is not a good thesis. I think you should shorten the course size.” I didn’t because I cannot work for 20 years and get the experience that she has, but I can learn it from her. That happened by having a conversation outside of my course – as a friend – because I feel like I vibe with the content. It’s the small things that matter.
Also, the part you said about Gen Z – I think that’s also because we are lucky with the digitization. We’re lucky with opportunities. For instance, in the last five years, internet in India has completely changed. It’s so cheap. It’s accessible to all. For $5.00 a month, we get unlimited high-speed internet.
I think we have an edge over others that way, but this is something that didn’t exist five years ago. It was really expensive – like it is in Australia, the States, and UAE. I also think it’s where opportunities have come into us across the world, digitization has picked up. Five years ago, people weren’t on LinkedIn like they are right now.
When you have an opportunity, you can afford to think that way. “I’m going to work for four hours. I’m not going to settle for eight hours. I’m going to do this. I’m going to do that.” But let’s be honest – if it was 15 years ago and we were struggling to put food in front of our families, we probably wouldn’t have the luxury to think that way, so let’s not dismiss that we have the luxury to do so and go out there and say things like, “Steve Jobs says that work makes a big part of your life, so you might as well make it fun!” but that’s because I can say it. I probably couldn’t say it if I was 25 fifteen years ago.
Mia Fileman 20:42
Precisely. Yes, absolutely.
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How important do you feel that having an established or large audience is when it comes to marketing your online courses? You do have a huge audience across Medium, LinkedIn, Twitter. You are popping!
Niharikaa Sodhi 21:43
I don’t know why it happened. I am known for leaving the website that I grow in. I deleted my Instagram. My Quora has 60,000 followers. I don’t even know why there’s been 60,000 since the last three years. But I didn’t really do anything ground-breaking there. I answered a few questions. I stopped working there as well.
I don’t think having a huge audience is important at all. It makes you more credible. Say, you are reaching out to me. It makes me more credible that people are following me for a reason. For marketing purposes, again, it doesn’t help as much as you think it does. It’s not like, if I put out something on LinkedIn tomorrow to 27,000 people, 20,000 of them – or even half of them – are going to buy it. It doesn’t work that way.
With my 5,000 Twitter followers, maybe I will cater to their problems, and they will. It helps, but it doesn’t define your success at all. It’s definitely not a success metric.
Mia Fileman 22:46
Such good feedback.
I think there are so many people out there hesitating because they’ve only got 2,000 Instagram followers or only 500 LinkedIn followers, but followers do not equal dollars by any stretch of the imagination.
Niharikaa Sodhi 23:01
At all.
I have had one-on-one conversations with nearly all top Medium writers. They talk about this as well. Because they’re up there, a lot of people think that they’re too far. “That person is a guru. I don’t know if I want to learn from him. I want to learn from somebody who’s closer to where I am. Maybe they don’t understand my problems.” They experience these difficulties as well.
Somebody with 80,000 followers will not even pull in five percent of their followers into their course. It doesn’t happen. Somebody with a third of those followers can pull out the same number. You don’t need to have a thousand fans. If you have 20 fans, you will make 20 sales. It’s okay.
Mia Fileman 23:48
It all depends on how engaged they are.
I don’t have a huge following anywhere. I have a biggish email list. I dedicate a lot of energy to them. I look after them. That’s how I make money. On the outside, you wouldn’t be like, “Wow! She’s an influencer and a massive writer!” Still though, I have no trouble selling my online programs. I think that there’s a lesson in that for all of us – not to focus on the vanity.
Niharikaa Sodhi 24:22
I experienced exactly the opposite. One of my friends would meet me. They’re like, “Now you’re a LinkedIn influencer.” I’m like, “No, I am not!” Somehow, people end up resonating with what I’m writing, but LinkedIn is one place where I have the largest following, but I put zero effort there. Most of my content is repurposed.
To think of it as where I’m spending my time, LinkedIn is the only platform where I’m not being paid. Twitter helps me make money. Medium helps me make money. LinkedIn is something I do for fun. I’m not putting a lot of energy into it. I’m not as consistent there, but people resonate.
I don’t like the term “influencer” because sometimes a lot of people try too hard to chase the metrics and it doesn’t come to them. Sometimes, when you’re doing fun things and you have the right intent, the numbers do eventually follow. You cannot chase a number. If I won 10,000 Twitter followers, I really can’t control that. I can start tweeting ten times a day. I can’t control that.
Just have fun with the process. The outcome will follow.
Mia Fileman 25:26
I love that. That is such a great place to end this chat.
Are there any other lessons or words of advice that you’d like to offer to people specifically thinking about launching an online course?
Niharikaa Sodhi 25:39
Yes, I would say don’t reinvent the wheel. If you’re lazy like me, then don’t do everything from scratch. Look at what others are doing and shamelessly steal, and I don’t mean plagiarize.
See, on this podcast, you know what works for Mia and for me. Learn from us. Use that instead of figuring it out on your own. There are way too many free (and paid) learning resources available. Also, know why somebody should do it. That will put a lot of things into perspective.
Mia Fileman 26:17
Yes, this is such a good point. I have a bone to pick with those marketers out there that will say to you, “Don’t worry about what your competitors are doing. Just focus on you. Ignore your competitors.” I actually think that that is colossally shit advice because, of course, you need to be aware of what your competitors are doing!
You definitely need to know what they’re offering in relation to you and how they’re delivering it. Otherwise, you could be launching an inferior product. There is no market for your product because it is being taken care of – much more efficiently and much more affordably – than what your competitors are doing. I think that’s actually really, really terrible advice.
Definitely do a competitor analysis to understand what exists and what you are going to take and what you are going to leave for your particular offering.
Niharikaa Sodhi 27:11
Yes.
Also, create a product after you see that that’s an issue. Don’t create something and try to sell it by making people think there’s an issue because that doesn’t work. That’s really pansy.
If you’re on Twitter or on any platform, you can see what makes people angry, what’s not working out for them, and if you think you can help them there, that’s your product. Don’t create another Twitter course because there are Twitter courses. If you have 300 followers and you create a Twitter course, nobody is going to buy it.
Mia Fileman 27:40
Do you know why people create that though? Because it solves a problem for them. “I’m a mum. I’m at home. I want some income. I know! I’ll launch another Twitter course.” That’s great for you, but that doesn’t necessarily give you a market for your product.
The way to go and figure out if you’ve got a market for your products is to pick up the phone and ask somebody whether they need this.
Niharikaa Sodhi 28:10
Also, credibility.
If you haven’t been there and done that, nobody is going to learn from you. If people are learning from me, it’s only because they’ve seen a journey. If I’m learning from somebody else, it’s only because I really do look up.
I took a stoicism course from somebody I genuinely look up to. I’ve been following him for a few months. I love to read what he writes. I love how he has his IT career balanced and he’s been a stoicism practitioner for eight years.
I recently bought Justin Welsh’s course. It was about content operating systems. If learning from him for an hour is going to make my life easier and is going to save hours off my work, I’m going to pay for that. It’s solving an issue for me. Put yourself as a consumer if you can’t make the effort to do other things.
Mia Fileman 29:00
Exactly. Don’t throw on the pile. Actually, go out there and see what’s being offered. See if there’s a gap in the market where you say, “Someone is offering this, but they’re not talking about this. I’ve qualified this as a real problem that people need help with, so I’m going to build an online course around that.”
Niharikaa Sodhi 29:19
Yes, exactly.
I saw other consistent writing courses focusing on consistency, but I want to focus on sustainable consistency because mindset matters. I don’t like playing dirty on human psychology. I don’t like putting somebody down and telling them that the only way to come up is by buying my stuff. It doesn’t work that way.
For me, sustainability, being kind, and improving somebody’s mindset is a big deal. That’s where a lot of my focus goes – even if it’s in consistent writing.
Mia Fileman 29:52
I love that.
I like to sleep well at night, and I don’t think I would sleep well if I used shame-based language, or fearmongering, or that false scarcity. “There’s only two more days to sign up!” A week later, they’re still talking about it. “I thought the doors closed two days ago.”
Niharikaa Sodhi 30:12
The discount is still there.
Mia Fileman 30:16
The number one thing in marketing is to earn trust. We have completely taken it out and hit it across a wall and grounded it into the dirt. That’s what we’ve done with people’s trust. Now, we’re living in a society where no one trusts anyone because of these kinds of underhanded tactics.
Niharikaa Sodhi 30:39
Exactly. I feel that. I’ve been on the receiving end of many such mail.
Mia Fileman 30:45
Me, too. I did a whole campaign about it, actually – I’ll send it to you – where I impersonated a guru. “Scale your business to seven figures in your sleep!” It resonated hard with people.
They were like, “Oh, my gosh! We are so sick of those people feeding us these lies about how easy it is to create a million-dollar business.” Billion-dollar business, I’m hearing now.
Niharikaa Sodhi 31:14
I think these courses are multilevel marketing. They make money off you by teaching you how to make money and you never make money out of those techniques. They’re so simple.
Mia Fileman 31:23
That’s exactly right. I say the exact same thing. It’s a pyramid scheme. It’s mining the miners. Are you familiar with this expression?
Niharikaa Sodhi 31:33
Yes.
Mia Fileman 31:34
The only people that made money in the gold rush after the initial finding of the gold were the people selling the miners more expensive tools. It was like, “Oh, that axe is not good enough! You need a more expensive axe. That pan is not good enough. You need a more expensive pan.” They’re just mining the miners.
Niharikaa Sodhi 31:54
Yes, I get that.
Mia Fileman 31:57
It has been an absolute pleasure. The last 30 minutes have absolutely flown. I would like to thank you sincerely for carving out the time and joining me. I’d love to have you back on the Got Marketing? Podcast.
Thank you so much!
Niharikaa Sodhi 32:12
Thank you for having me! This conversation was a lot of fun. Thank you!
Mia Fileman 32:17
Thank you!
You listened right up until the end, so why not press that subscribe button and keep the good marketing rolling? You can also connect with me, Mia Fileman, on Instagram or LinkedIn. Feel free to send me a message! I’m super friendly.
